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withershadow
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PostSubject: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sat Sep 29 2018, 05:21

So the FAQ has hit. Agents of Vect now costs 4 and explicitly needs a Black Heart unit. Nothing can deep strike turn one, which is sad for Screaming Jets. Labyrinthine Cunning can only recover a single CP per battle round. New generic stratagem lets the second player give his whole army cover for 2 CP.

Harlequins have been nerfed along with flying units to only work during movement.

On the other hand, lots of nasty Imperial stratagems also went up in price. And infiltrate abilities are now just 9” pre-battle movement.

Not too bad all things considered, although my hope for Beast Master blades for hire are much diminished.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sat Sep 29 2018, 06:37

This is the typical GW sledgehammer approach. Knights and smash captains lost so much functionality with those price hikes, fine whatever, they were undercosted as hell. We'll just go back to Ynnari Eldar and other flavors of Imperial soup though, this doesn't change the dynamic it just churns the meta. This price change takes the double Guard battalions from nice to have to mandatory to get those extra CP to burn. AoV is now prohibitively expensive to the point you're never going to use it because it's virtually never worth blowing half your CP to stop one stratagem. And Harlequins just got shoved even harder into the Haywire Outrider role.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sat Sep 29 2018, 07:06

Vect would have been fine at 4 if we could still regenerate CPs. With the double whammy, it does indeed get hit very hard.
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sat Sep 29 2018, 07:26

This is categorical evidence that the people driving this bus don't have a clue where they're going. Armies were allegedly starved of CP so they upped Battalions from 3 to 5CP and Brigades from 9 to 12 and gave everyone a CP farm. Then everyone abused the hell out of CP farms and cheap Battalions because tournament players are nothing if not points efficient, and then GW goes WHOA HOLD ON THERE, NELLY! Now the cost of every major, useful stratagem either skyrocketed (AoV, Blood Angels, and virtually all the Knight ones) or was invalidated (Screaming Jets) and they all but took away CP batteries. This basically undoes the benefit of increasing the CP of the main detachments and farming CP regen. Which begs the question of why they bothered increasing the CP generated by Battalions and Brigades in the first place?

Seriously, if you had 2 battalions when our codex dropped you had 9CP and 3 possible Vects. Then you had 13CP and 4 possible Vects. Now we're back to 13CP and 3 possible Vects. What changed? What are they thinking? What has been achieved in the name of game balance since these dials were turned and levers flipped? Hell if I know.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sat Sep 29 2018, 14:36

I think the problem is that GW refuse to address the actual issue - which is allies.

The only reason why Imperial Knights and Blood Angels can spam powerful Stratagems is because they have access to Guard CP batteries. The FAQ has done nothing whatsoever to address this.

A far more sensible option would have been to limit CP spending to the faction that actually generated them. Yes, it would require a little more bookkeeping, but it would also have stopped ally CP shenanigans entirety.  

Also, making Agents of Vect at 4CP just seems like complete overkill.


Lack of deep strike on turn 1 is a little sad. Not too bad, though, especially given that this was standard for previous editions.


On a somewhat positive note, I will appreciate being able to play Kabals other than Black Heart without feeling like I'm gimping myself in the process. Razz


To be perfectly honest, though, the main thing I take from this FAQ is how anaemic it is. A handful of sweeping changes that don't really fix anything (par for the course, I guess), some minor clarifications . . . and that's it. Not one unit even had its point cost changed. Neutral

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sat Sep 29 2018, 15:10

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
The only reason why Imperial Knights and Blood Angels can spam powerful Stratagems is because they have access to Guard CP batteries. The FAQ has done nothing whatsoever to address this.

But... the FAQ massively hammered CP batteries? It might not be the solution you wanted but the Knight/Captain/Guard list is going to be considerably weaker now.

Aeldari soup's still going to be an issue in the meta, I suspect, but I think that's due to undercosting rather than any specific problem caused by allying (outside of Doom and Jinx, maybe).
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sat Sep 29 2018, 15:15

@Burnage wrote:

But... the FAQ massively hammered CP batteries?

No, it just limited CP generation after the fact.

What exactly did it to to prevent guard allies generating 10-12 CP from the get-go?

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sat Sep 29 2018, 15:30

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Burnage wrote:

But... the FAQ massively hammered CP batteries?

No, it just limited CP generation after the fact.

What exactly did it to to prevent guard allies generating 10-12 CP from the get-go?

Nothing, it's still very easy for a small Guard battalion to grant 5 CP. But that's not a major issue, as most factions have access to a cheap battalion of some kind (e.g. - if you just want CP and don't care about Obsessions, our cheapest battalion is about the same price as the cheapest Guard battalion).

The issue was that Guard could provide that cheap source of CP while also providing the best CP regeneration in the game, thanks to the 5+ regain on using their own CPs and a 5+ on enemy stratagem use. Capping it so that you're only allowed a maximum of 1 CP a round makes that regeneration considerably less effective and is almost certainly going to mean that Knights and Captains will be unable to constantly use the stratagems which make them so strong.

That was one of the major reasons as to why the Knight/Captain/Guard list was dominating the meta. It's quite simply not going to be as good any more.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sat Sep 29 2018, 15:42

@Burnage wrote:

Nothing, it's still very easy for a small Guard battalion to grant 5 CP.

Or, you know, 10 CP from 2 Battalions or 12 from a Brigade.

@Burnage wrote:
But that's not a major issue, as most factions have access to a cheap battalion of some kind

Except that it *is* an issue.

What cheap Battalion can Imperial Knights make on their own?

And whilst Blood Angels might be able to scrape together a Battalion that doesn't set them back too much, they'll seriously struggle to afford a second Battalion or a Brigade.

This is a weakness that should be enforced.

@Burnage wrote:

The issue was that Guard could provide that cheap source of CP while also providing the best CP regeneration in the game, thanks to the 5+ regain on using their own CPs and a 5+ on enemy stratagem use.

No, the issue was that Guard could provide far more CP that would otherwise be available, and at no meaningful cost.

Again, Allies simply should not be providing CP at all, let alone more than would be available in a mono army. It's simply bad game design.

All this FAQ has done is make IG Allies even more important than they already were.

What is the bonus for not taking allies? What is the bonus for just using your own army? We're still stuck with allies being outright better than mono-armies and the only thing this useless FAQ has done is cement that.

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Mikoneo
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sat Sep 29 2018, 16:14

The increased cost in the knights stratagems has done even more to cement soup as the best way to play knights by costing them outside the relams of usefulness for knight heavy/solo armies in my opinion.

Vect doesn't seem usable anymore with that cost and no regen, when all other stratagems it could stop are cheaper and the fact that the chance to fail is still there. If they removed the chance to fail and the opponent lost the cp on 5+ then maybe
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sat Sep 29 2018, 18:07

Honestly, it only fixed 1 of the 3 problems, made 1 underplay army even more under played, didnt fix the other 2 problems, and yet again they fixed the 1 problem in the worst way, aka nerf mono play.

1) CP farm
2) Soup
3) Mono option

CP farm was fix, but IMO there was a better way to fix it (its part of what will fix soup)

Soup wasnt fixed at all, and sure they made some stratagems go up, but when playing without CP farm and in a Mono list those stratagems are only used once or twice a game anyways, so again soup is the problem.

Mono faction without allies still doesnt have a reason to be played, now with price hikes it PUSHES you to want to play them even more now, I know some Knight players that mono knight, this really screwed with them. My local likes to play Mono with small amounts of allies, its just more fun for us (we will got o tournaments and use the "meta" lists, but at locals we try to use all units and mono factions to still win).

The Loyal 32 is still a problem, I can see Eldar Soup and Loyal 32 still in top lists unless CA later this year points nerf things into dust. BUT again in Mono armies those point nerfs makes no since (other than Guardsman being 5pmm, IDK why they are not 5ppm, playing nids i F&^%ing hate Guardsman, makes me feel like i shouldnt even play with H/T gants at all).

They really need to make 40k like AOS when it comes to allies, You only get what is on their Datasheets.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sat Sep 29 2018, 23:40

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sun Sep 30 2018, 01:11

I'm hopeful that CP farms will be fixed via the Chapter Approved.

I see a lot of downs so I'll try and brighten the mood:
Flayed Skull > Prepared Positions

Very Happy
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sun Sep 30 2018, 01:11

Cp farm was fix, only 5 CP max a game that can get back, Loyal 32 wasnt fixed.


How CP farm worked:
 

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sun Sep 30 2018, 13:13

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Burnage wrote:

Nothing, it's still very easy for a small Guard battalion to grant 5 CP.

Or, you know, 10 CP from 2 Battalions or 12 from a Brigade.

Neither of these are costless - getting 10 CP from 2 Guard Battalions is relatively cheap points-wise, but you're still using up two of your detachments on Guard. The Brigade is a heavier points sink, costing (I think) over 600 points if you choose the cheapest - but slightly crappy - units. If the Imperial Soup player wants either of those options, they're going to be more restricted in taking units from other factions that they might want more.

I dunno, maybe this is just me. I don't see allies or soup as an intrinsic problem to the game; I think they're just flagging up problematic units in general.
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sun Sep 30 2018, 14:23

@Burnage wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Burnage wrote:

Nothing, it's still very easy for a small Guard battalion to grant 5 CP.

Or, you know, 10 CP from 2 Battalions or 12 from a Brigade.

Neither of these are costless - getting 10 CP from 2 Guard Battalions is relatively cheap points-wise, but you're still using up two of your detachments on Guard. The Brigade is a heavier points sink, costing (I think) over 600 points if you choose the cheapest - but slightly crappy - units. If the Imperial Soup player wants either of those options, they're going to be more restricted in taking units from other factions that they might want more.

I dunno, maybe this is just me. I don't see allies or soup as an intrinsic problem to the game; I think they're just flagging up problematic units in general.

they are not that crappy, the brigade is really dangerous to infantry with 15 mortars rerolling to hit. the only draw back are the 3 sentinels but they can be useful too, 12 cp for 600 points is not that bad, i got some decent armies with it. (dont judge me i played against a friend and we went all out on the cheese)

One fix for the loyal 32 would be the old infantry platoon rule from 5ed: one Troops choice for guard was one platoon consisting of a platoon command sqaud, 2-6 infantry sqauds, 0-? special weapons squads and 0-3 heavy weapon squads
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sun Sep 30 2018, 17:22

@Burnage wrote:
Neither of these are costless - getting 10 CP from 2 Guard Battalions is relatively cheap points-wise, but you're still using up two of your detachments on Guard.

That's true. I guess we'll be seeing a lot more Brigades, then.

@Burnage wrote:
The Brigade is a heavier points sink, costing (I think) over 600 points if you choose the cheapest - but slightly crappy - units. If the Imperial Soup player wants either of those options, they're going to be more restricted in taking units from other factions that they might want more.

I think you're seriously undervaluing the usefulness of an IG Brigade here.

You get:
- 6 squads of the most efficient infantry in the game, which are practically unmatched as objective holders and screening units.
- 2-3 exceptionally cheap HQs to support those infantry squads, and possibly a very cheap Psyker as well.
- 3 very cheap Heavy Support squads that can sit on objectives, out of LoS, whilst still contributing 9d6 S4 shots at 48".
- 3 Sentinels which, while not as good as the above, are still fairly cheap and can act as screening units, objective-grabbers, or just gun-turrets. Alternatively, you can opt for something like Hellhounds which are (unless I'm mistaken) highly valued at the moment.
- 3 Elites (I honestly don't know what the preferred pick is here - I know you can get 3 Commissars for less than 60pts total, but I don't know offhand if there are better choices)

Given that you're also getting a huge amount of CP as well, I think it will be a no-brainer for any Imperium armies.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Mon Oct 01 2018, 00:13

Commissars suck, platoon commanders all the way
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Mon Oct 01 2018, 06:54

@Soulless Samurai wrote:

A far more sensible option would have been to limit CP spending to the faction that actually generated them. Yes, it would require a little more bookkeeping, but it would also have stopped ally CP shenanigans entirety.  

This actually is a very good idea. They could do this or provide some other benefit for using a mono army. But with the current CP costs factions like knights are totally depending on an IG battalion, even more than before. If they restrict the available CPs to the faction that generated them balancing CP cost would also be much easier as you don't need to consider the cross faction impact.
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Wed Oct 03 2018, 19:58

@withershadow wrote:
So the FAQ has hit. Agents of Vect now costs 4 and explicitly needs a Black Heart unit.

Did anyone truly believe that GW would allow you to use AoV without any Black Heart units?
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sat Oct 06 2018, 10:32

@krayd wrote:
@withershadow wrote:
So the FAQ has hit. Agents of Vect now costs 4 and explicitly needs a Black Heart unit.

Did anyone truly believe that GW would allow you to use AoV without any Black Heart units?

RAI I think we all knew GW wouldn't allow it.

But RAW it was a logical argument with no explicit prevention in place.

Ultaimtely its about GW wording things better so that its clear.




Also, geez. I go away for a month and a sudden Big FAQ happens. Got some catching up to do!
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PostSubject: Re: New FAQ - ups and downs    Sat Oct 06 2018, 12:02

@Squidmaster wrote:
@krayd wrote:
@withershadow wrote:
So the FAQ has hit. Agents of Vect now costs 4 and explicitly needs a Black Heart unit.

Did anyone truly believe that GW would allow you to use AoV without any Black Heart units?

RAI I think we all knew GW wouldn't allow it.

But RAW it was a logical argument with no explicit prevention in place.

Ultaimtely its about GW wording things better so that its clear.




Also, geez. I go away for a month and a sudden Big FAQ happens. Got some catching up to do!

To be fair, they said Sept faq for a year now lol.

The biggest things are DSing turn 1 and Fly Keyword.

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