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krayd
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PostSubject: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 15:11

Well, the current batch of rumors state that the Talos is expected to increase in cost by 25 points, and that Agents of Vect will be limited to one use per turn.

25 points seems awfully steep. However, GW has increased unit costs by a slightly unreasonable level in the past as a reactionary measure (see: Eldar Warlocks). What bothers me about it is that I don't think that the cost of the Talos is the problem per se; it's more that Prophets of Flesh specifically are more effective (after all, do you see anyone taking any other Coven competitively? I don't).
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Mikoneo
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 15:14

Saw these rumours as well. 25 point increase to talos is pretty rough, and will make non prophets taloi(?) even less desirable than they already are (which is pretty undesirable already). Vect doesn't really need a fix in my opinion but if it shuts people up then fair enough
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 15:18

@Mikoneo wrote:
Saw these rumours as well. 25 point increase to talos is pretty rough, and will make non prophets taloi(?) even less desirable than they already are (which is pretty undesirable already). Vect doesn't really need a fix in my opinion but if it shuts people up then fair enough

Yeah. I don't really care about the AoV "fix" - Frankly, I've never used it more than once per turn anyway.

Perhaps GW needs to start instituting a point cost for taking certain subfactions? Clearly, certain subfactions are more competitive than others when placed on equal footing costwise. It might also curb certain types of soup if you had to pay a point penalty for every one of the more competitive subfactions you took in your army.
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 15:49

Jez 25 points is a lot. I would be of the same opinion AoV fix, would be perfectly fine with once per turn. Not sure about subfaction costing extra points, think it might be to complicated to implement. Think GW are more for simple solutions that may or may not fix the/ a problem (ala Rule of 3 etc).

Saw something one Bols about CP's only being spent by detachment it came from in regards to strats etc. that seems too complicated as well in fairness, so pinch of salt and all that.

Anyone hear about when this FAQ will come out? end of sept? October?

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 16:25

At least my Talos will have a nice view from atop its shelf.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 16:44

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
At least my Talos will have a nice view from atop its shelf.

I'll still probably take them for some lists - but no more than a unit of 3. (Just like the price hike on Dark Reapers doesn't prevent me from taking them, but I'm probably never going to take more than one unit)

The rumor is that the FAQ will show up around September 16.

I wouldn't expect CP to be limited to detachment because that's a bit *too* complicated. However, they might limit it to codex faction - like IG detachments can only use their CP for IG stratagems, etc.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 17:06

Yeah for knee jerk reactions and no real fix!

No Talos will be like the other nerf units and never played..... 10pts? sure, but 25pts? wtf

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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 17:09

I like to add, this is also a rumor, it might be wrong, or just Spiky bits trying to click bait as well, lets take it with some salt for now.

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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 18:32

I can't see Talos going up but Ravagers and Grotesques not. It's gonna be rough if all of those get hit by the same measures. The thing is, those units aren't even that good, they're just decent. We do well with them because Dark Eldar is a very offensive army and most players don't know how to handle the high pressure we put on them.

However if Shield Captains, Smash Captains, Knights, mortars, etc. all get hit with the same bat then I'd say we're pound for pound coming out on top. That's a very big IF though.

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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 18:51

There's no way the Guard/Knight/Captain list isn't getting hammered by nerfs in this FAQ, it's the biggest problem in the meta right now.

I'll be pretty angry if it winds up that a huge chunk of our units get major nerfs and they only get a light love-tap.
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 18:57

@TeenageAngst wrote:
The thing is, those units aren't even that good, they're just decent. We do well with them because Dark Eldar is a very offensive army and most players don't know how to handle the high pressure we put on them.

Well...

Respectfully, I think you're wrong.

Maybe Drukhari are such a distinct 40k army that no one can really figure out how to deal with these units...

But that's a bit too much of a subjective factor to mean much to a rules developer. I think there's a lot more to be gleaned from major tournament results; it's hard to see that data and not recognize how well these units are performing together.

I'm not against spurning conventional wisdom, but your argument seems to boil down to: Ravagers, Talos and Grotesques aren't that strong, non-Drukhari players just aren't that competent.

It's a really subjective argument, and it kind of flies in the face of all the information we have....maybe go out and crack some heads and make top tables at a major tournament? I'm not being facetious, running something different with a proven track record can change the meta.
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 19:16

I think the problem with the Talos isn't that it's too cheap, but rather it's able to be spammed pretty easily.

Like for instance Ravagers. They're good fire platforms in the right configuration, but in the end they're not too hard to deal with because there's only three. Can you imagine the griping if you could fit nine in a list? Same with the Talos, I wouldn't mind if they went down to 1-2 or even just 1 per unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 19:18

It ain't that subjective. You look at the meta and it's a solid 30%+ knights with guard. The remainder is Ynnari/Eldar and Chaos with Dark Eldar lagging in like 4th place in terms of visibility.

Quote :
I think the problem with the Talos isn't that it's too cheap, but rather it's able to be spammed pretty easily.

Like for instance Ravagers. They're good fire platforms in the right configuration, but in the end they're not too hard to deal with because there's only three. Can you imagine the griping if you could fit nine in a list? Same with the Talos, I wouldn't mind if they went down to 1-2 or even just 1 per unit.

Stop trying to bargain with unreasonable opinions. Most people who lose to Dark Eldar haven't played them frequently so they have no idea how they function, so they lose and get salty about it. When I want to NOVA I had never played knights and thus lost 2 matches to imperial soup lists. After that I learned, then played Guard/Shield Captains and Knights/Admech and won both games. It wasn't that my list was that crazy, it was that I learned how to play on the fly. Having something no one has seen before is the best advantage you can have and most people have still not seen much Dark Eldar so *of course* we're going to do well with baseline performers like Talos and Ravagers.

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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 19:26

Eh, I'd put Dark Eldar about even with Craftworld Eldar in terms of visibility right now. Pure Dark Eldar is way down but soup's the name of the game.

Edit: We're six months into Dark Eldar being seen as one of the strongest factions in the game, I don't buy that most people - in competitive settings, at least - haven't played against them.


Last edited by Burnage on Wed Sep 12 2018, 19:29; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 19:28

Dont forget, this was a rumor of 4 updates, CA is going to have 30+ changes for sure, if not more.

If IG go up to 5ppm (OMFG i cant wait for this to happen), and CP double 5+ to gain back infinity stratagem is fixed you'll see Imperial meta shift like crazy.

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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 19:30

My sources tell me all these rumors are bunk anyway, but if we're making mountains out of molehills then yeah Imperial is going to get kneecapped.

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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 19:32

For those that dont know what im talking about infinite CP.

IG has a WL trait and a relic that lets you roll a 5+ on all command dice rolled to get one back (you and your opponents) then BA has the same relic.

So when you spend CP on your turn for each 1 CP, you roll 3 dice and on a 5+ you get 1 back, on your opponents turn you roll 1 dice.

If you spend 3 CP on your turn and they spend 3 as well, in 1 turn you get 12 dice to roll a 5+ to gain CP back, thats on average 4CP regained.

Im pretty sure this is going to be fixed

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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 19:53

Regarding Ravagers, do you think they'd still be too strong if they weren't taken in a Black Heart detachment with the inevitable Archon reciting Vect's Poetry to them?

I guess what I'm saying is that it will be sad if the weaker detachments take a hit because Black Heart was given too many toys. tongue

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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 20:07

Your argument is that rerolling 1s is too strong. In a game about rerolling 1s, when we do it, it's unfair.

You people are hopeless.

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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 20:14

? Who said anything ab out re-roll 1's?

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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 20:16

The guy above him was talking about the writ archon set up, which is re-rolling ones
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 20:21

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Your argument is that rerolling 1s is too strong. In a game about rerolling 1s, when we do it, it's unfair.

You people are hopeless.

Sigh. Thank you for carefully ignoring my argument. It always makes these debates so much more fun. Rolling Eyes

The point was that, for our army, rerolling 1s to wound with Ravagers is not universal.

- If I play Flayed Skull, my Ravagers won't be rerolling 1s to wound and they won't have a 6+++ save.
- If I play Poison Tongue, my Ravagers won't be rerolling 1s to wound and they won't have a 6+++ save.
- If I play Obsidian Rose, my Ravagers won't be rerolling 1s to wound and they won't have a 6+++ save.

Nor in any of these cases will I have access to a CP regeneration warlord trait or a counter-stratagem.

My question was, if Ravagers are perceived as being too strong, do you think they would still be too strong if you stripped out the Black Heart stuff?

As in, are they overpowered in and of themselves or is it just that one specific Black Heart setup that makes them too good for their points?

Because, if it's just that Black Heart setup that causes issues, then nerfing the Ravager wouldn't really fix much - it will just help to cement the Black Heart detachment as being the only one worth taking. Hence, a better solution would be to tweak Black Heart, so that it's not outright better than the others at supporting a Ravager wing.

Of course, if you believe either that the Ravager is a problem in and of itself or that it isn't an issue at all, then obviously your answer will be different.

I was just trying to find out where people stood on the issue.



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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 20:27

I don't think that anyone (who knows what they're talking about) thinks that Ravagers are over-powered. Especially since they will fall apart the moment your opponent decides to focus on them.

They're just a must-take for most Black Heart lists due to their bonuses/utility.

However, pretty much every army gets some form of re-rollable 1's (or better), so it's a must-take because it's what allows us to compete with other armies (which have plenty of ways to reroll hits/wounds).

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Disintegrator cannons got a minor point hike (5-10 points).
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 20:30

Black Heart isn't the best it's just the most straight forward. Obsidian Rose is best for long range gunlines. Flayed Skull is best if you want to specialize in killing anything with the fly keyword, which considering it's handed out like candy, isn't a bad option either. Both of those take some measure of actual finesse though so yeah a 6+++ and rerolling 1s is just a no brainer choice for people who don't want to work at it.

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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming FAQ Rumors   Wed Sep 12 2018, 20:37

Yeah, I haven't seen Ravagers as being particularly overpowered (especially outside of Black Heart).

However, they're one of the units that tends to get brought up in any discussion about OP units. Assuming said discussion is mature enough to just say 'the entire DE codex' or some equally ignorant twaddle.


@TeenageAngst wrote:
Black Heart isn't the best it's just the most straight forward. Obsidian Rose is best for long range gunlines. Flayed Skull is best if you want to specialize in killing anything with the fly keyword, which considering it's handed out like candy, isn't a bad option either. Both of those take some measure of actual finesse though so yeah a 6+++ and rerolling 1s is just a no brainer choice for people who don't want to work at it.

Flayed Skull and Obsidian Rose definitely have their advantages, but I think they're better for more troop-heavy detachments. e.g. +6" of range is nice, but I'd say it's worth a lot more on an 12" or 18" range weapon than on the Ravager's 36" range guns.

In any case, Black Heart also gives access to Agents of Vect and CP regeneration, which is probably going to be an effective tiebreaker (at least for competitive play).


EDIT:

@krayd wrote:

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Disintegrator cannons got a minor point hike (5-10 points).

I've seen it suggested that Disintegrators and Dark Lances should have their costs switched, which I wouldn't mind.

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