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 Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play

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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Tue Sep 11 2018, 15:54

Hi all,

I know they arnt meta at all, but are Incubi useful under ANY circumstance? My friends and I play friendlies at 500-1000 pts and we try to be tactical and a little min-max about it, but we arnt anywhere near meta tournament levels of play.

I like incubi. I think they have always looked fantastic. From the old metal models with the pistol helmets and the massive glaives, where they meshed so well with the Master of Blades, to the new look with the weird klaives. But from everything I have read they are just... well... awful. No one ever takes them. Ever. And that leads me to think they are just useless.

Is that the case? Or are they really good but just a little overpriced? Or simply not as good as a squad of wyches? Whats their role?
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Tue Sep 11 2018, 16:57

I also really like them and have always liked them, they capture a lot of the spirit of the old codex, when we were just the dark, evil foil to Craftworld Eldar.

I played with a squad in a Venom after the Index came out, with a Farseer Skyrunner casting Doom. The Klaivex loves Doom, but even without it they were alright when applied carefully - they're made of glass with or without that 3+ save, so they just get dropped off near a preferred enemy I know they'll do well against, I wouldn't commit them if I knew they were likely to face hard retaliation, and I kept them the hell away from dedicated combat units.

It sucks that they aren't able to put their money where their mouth is against other armies' combat specialists but they work well picking on weaker units and they can blend T3, which isn't super typical for our army.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Tue Sep 11 2018, 18:28

They're good against ranged MEQ units, I'd say, but they're very fragile and need to be used carefully. Probably their biggest issue is that we have a lot of stuff that can deal with MEQ units more easily (Disintegrators!), but you're also not going to see that many MEQ units in competitive lists currently so they wind up facing opponents that they're not massively strong against.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Tue Sep 11 2018, 18:30

Way Way overpriced, no real function on the board that other things in our dex do not do cheaper/better.
Just really no place for them competitively.

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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Tue Sep 11 2018, 19:52

Damn. I was worried about that. Ill be facing Tau, Chaos Marines, or Daemons, and I will have a small force of wyches, and it sounds like the Incubi, once again, are next to useless compared to other options.

So I have this force I bought back in 4th ed, that are the only ones I am proud of the paint job on. And I havnt been able to use them since then. Their stat block really doesnt match their fluff does it? And not being Court of the Archon units kinda sucks.
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Tue Sep 11 2018, 19:58

Give them a try if you like them, they'll take some finesse to use well - that could be a fun challenge for you, and you'll probably see improvements with how you use them from one game to the next.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Tue Sep 11 2018, 20:42

They're really not great. They seem to be built as a glass-cannon unit, except that S4 weapons with 1 damage apiece just don't have enough punch to be a threat to most units. Maybe if they were S5 or Damage 2.

I mean, you could always try a single unit of them in a venom. However, when you're playing at relatively low point values, it will represent a significant chunk of your army.

It would probably be better to use them in 1500+pt games, where they'll represent a relatively low investment in points.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Tue Sep 11 2018, 20:44

Disintegrators does their job better. But in a map with a lot of LOSB terrains, they can be good.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Tue Sep 11 2018, 20:49

I love my incubi, only have ten but they were one of my first units when I started, and it took a while to really find a spot for them. But after a while (and some discussion with a better DE player) I found that using them as a general beatstick that I was isn't going to work instead I had to think of them more like a scalpal (probably not the best way to put it but that's how I remember it). Say your wyches can't quite finish off their target, add incubi and that target goes down, shot most of a unit off the board and don't wanna waist the firepower? Use incubi to finish the job, character down to only a couple wounds? Send in the incubi ( if it isn't a monsterous character but anything t5 or below should be easy enough) stuff like that is more or less what I use them for ... Or charging units off of points. The stratagem is a bit meh but they do the work I want them to.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Tue Sep 11 2018, 21:19

7 incubi (112 pts) vs 3 POF grotesques. (105 pts). Who wins?
Grots. Hands down, not even close.

10 wyches(cursed blade or strife) vs 5 incubi (same pts cost) Who Wins?
Wyches.

14 Kabalite warriors (poison tongue) vs 5 incubi (84 vs 80 pts)
Incubi will never even make it into combat.


When your base troop choices are hands down better than your elite "killy" unit, the elite unit needs some changes.

Just my opinion.

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Sacredsilence
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Wed Sep 12 2018, 02:37

I think the min 5 man unit also killed them off in the body guard role a bit, in 7th ed. I ran 4 with an Archon in a venom and they surprised me with how well they did when they didn't get shot off the board protecting my Archon from overwatch and other shooting. Now I couldn't justify spending not only the points on that unit but the transport for them when I can just take mandrakes to fill out elite slots for the same points, no transport needed and a more versatile unit
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Wed Sep 12 2018, 12:30

@Skulnbonz wrote:
7 incubi (112 pts) vs 3 POF grotesques. (105 pts).  Who wins?
Grots. Hands down, not even close.

10 wyches(cursed blade or strife) vs 5 incubi (same pts cost) Who Wins?
Wyches.

14 Kabalite warriors (poison tongue) vs 5 incubi (84 vs 80 pts)
Incubi will never even make it into combat.


When your base troop choices are hands down better than your elite "killy" unit, the elite unit needs some changes.

Just my opinion.

Yep, no obsessions and being mercenaries really hurts them too, if they were 12ppm (20pts cheaper for full unit) I dont think i will would take them, not when they dont fill up a brigade/battalion. AT least being 60pt for a unit is about where they should be.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Wed Sep 12 2018, 13:08

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:
7 incubi (112 pts) vs 3 POF grotesques. (105 pts).  Who wins?
Grots. Hands down, not even close.

10 wyches(cursed blade or strife) vs 5 incubi (same pts cost) Who Wins?
Wyches.

14 Kabalite warriors (poison tongue) vs 5 incubi (84 vs 80 pts)
Incubi will never even make it into combat.


When your base troop choices are hands down better than your elite "killy" unit, the elite unit needs some changes.

Just my opinion.

Yep, no obsessions and being mercenaries really hurts them too, if they were 12ppm (20pts cheaper for full unit) I dont think i will would take them, not when they dont fill up a brigade/battalion. AT least being 60pt for a unit is about where they should be.

I agree with this, though I'll add that I really think the Archon's aura should be able to affect mercenary units.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Wed Sep 12 2018, 14:33

@Skulnbonz wrote:
7 incubi (112 pts) vs 3 POF grotesques. (105 pts).  Who wins?
Grots. Hands down, not even close.

10 wyches(cursed blade or strife) vs 5 incubi (same pts cost) Who Wins?
Wyches.

14 Kabalite warriors (poison tongue) vs 5 incubi (84 vs 80 pts)
Incubi will never even make it into combat.


When your base troop choices are hands down better than your elite "killy" unit, the elite unit needs some changes.

Just my opinion.


It depend of the target. I don't think 3 grots beat 7 incubi against TEC or marines in cover.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Wed Sep 12 2018, 14:35

@dumpeal wrote:
It depend of the target. I don't think 3 grots beat 7 incubi against TEC or marines in cover.

Why would cover make a difference to melee units? Question

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Wed Sep 12 2018, 14:43

@dumpeal wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:
7 incubi (112 pts) vs 3 POF grotesques. (105 pts).  Who wins?
Grots. Hands down, not even close.

10 wyches(cursed blade or strife) vs 5 incubi (same pts cost) Who Wins?
Wyches.

14 Kabalite warriors (poison tongue) vs 5 incubi (84 vs 80 pts)
Incubi will never even make it into combat.


When your base troop choices are hands down better than your elite "killy" unit, the elite unit needs some changes.

Just my opinion.


It depend of the target. I don't think 3 grots beat 7 incubi against TEC or marines in cover.

T3, Sv 3+/6+++ 7wounds vs T5/6+, Sv4+/6+++ 12 wounds will survive much longer/easier.

Really 9 Incubi and 4 Grots are better balance to check as they are only 4pts apart and not 9-12pts apart.

Thats 9 wounds and 28 attacks vs 16 wounds and 20 attacks, the survivability is such a huge difference that those 8 attacks will make up for it.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Wed Sep 12 2018, 16:04

@amishprn86 wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:
7 incubi (112 pts) vs 3 POF grotesques. (105 pts).  Who wins?
Grots. Hands down, not even close.

10 wyches(cursed blade or strife) vs 5 incubi (same pts cost) Who Wins?
Wyches.

14 Kabalite warriors (poison tongue) vs 5 incubi (84 vs 80 pts)
Incubi will never even make it into combat.


When your base troop choices are hands down better than your elite "killy" unit, the elite unit needs some changes.

Just my opinion.


It depend of the target. I don't think 3 grots beat 7 incubi against TEC or marines in cover.

T3, Sv 3+/6+++ 7wounds vs T5/6+, Sv4+/6+++ 12 wounds will survive much longer/easier.

Really 9 Incubi and 4 Grots are better balance to check as they are only 4pts apart and not 9-12pts apart.

Thats 9 wounds and 28 attacks vs 16 wounds and 20 attacks, the survivability is such a huge difference that those 8 attacks will make up for it.

I don't argue the grots are more surviable than incubi. But for mere damage output, I'm not sure.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Wed Sep 12 2018, 16:18

If Moral phase actually worked (it should work MUCH better in melee IMO than vs shooting) incubi would have a different roll, Anti-infantry, 30+ attacks with AP and -1 LD with 3+/6+++.


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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Thu Sep 13 2018, 18:46

I won't say that Incubi are good, but I like the models and have founds ways for them to be decent. If they can strike, they still hit fairly harder than Wyches.

Most games I have found people will focus fire on the Incubi transport and leave the Wyches alive or they will change tactics to target the Incubi when they disembark. That is probably more against lower tier players and those that don't really know what Incubi can do.

Other benefits are giving them the 1+ armor save in cover for late game objective holding. It doesn't happen a lot, but it is funny to see reactions to elves that are really hard to kill.

I've found ways to make them work, but they certainly aren't amazing.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Fri Sep 14 2018, 16:57

Not now, just because out of meta. Not that they're not good. They just shine vs Marines, but you don't see so many Marines right now (is not their meta, PA needs some love in the next CA).

I would not definitely consider them bad. Just no need of them right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Tue Sep 18 2018, 00:44

They would be a lot better with some buffs, direct or indirect (via making Drazhar not suck). I have high hopes for the FAQ/CA, that I am certain will be thoroughly dashed.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Tue Sep 18 2018, 01:18

Drazhar should also have the Re-roll Aura no matter what.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there a place for Incubi in tactical play   Tue Sep 18 2018, 19:32

The thing that absolutely kills Incubi is that they serve no tactical role. I liked them when MEQs dominated the meta, but in 8th enemy models are more likely to have multiple wounds or an invul save. Both of the latter completely hard counter Incubi.

S4 D1 just doesnt cut it anymore (pun intended) regardless the AP. What they need is multi-damage or Mortal Wounds to counter invul saves. Personally, I'd give Incubi a rule that turns their weapon into D2 when fighting a non-vehicle enemy. This also puts more pressure on enemy units with FNP.

And it wouldn't even be too strong because they lack access to obsessions. In a perfect world, I'd make Drazhar give surrounding Incubi +1 to PfP. Furthermore, if all units in the Detachment have the Incubi keyword, they benefit from re-rolling wounds (more for fun, to make up for lacking obsessions).

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