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Burnage
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PostSubject: NOVA Top Lists   Tue Sep 04 2018, 08:39

Taken from a thread on DakkaDakka;

Spoiler:
 

There's a lot of Dark Eldar on there, and in particular just a few units - Ravagers, Wracks, Grotesques. There's also very obviously a lot of soup, either Aeldari/Ynnari or Imperial.

Just food for thought given that an FAQ and Chapter Approved are coming soon.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Tue Sep 04 2018, 12:55

Ravagers, Dissies, and most of Coven is probably due for a nerf. Interesting that the Venom Spam that was in previous tournaments seems to be mostly missing, though.

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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Tue Sep 04 2018, 15:28

Dark Eldar won't be noticeably nerfed.

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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Tue Sep 04 2018, 17:51

I like the prevalence of Dark Eldar and Harlequins in the new meta. Gives my autocannons something to do this edition.

As for nerfs, I doubt we will see much more than a small point hike for disintigrators and Grots.
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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Tue Sep 04 2018, 18:11

I really hope Dark Lances and Disintegrators swap points costs. It would make both options equally appealing.

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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Tue Sep 04 2018, 20:42

@TeenageAngst wrote:
I really hope Dark Lances and Disintegrators swap points costs. It would make both options equally appealing.

i think people will always pick the least expensive option
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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Tue Sep 04 2018, 21:55

Considering that Dissies are pretty much objectively superior I'd be willing to pay a bit more for them than for Lances.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Wed Sep 05 2018, 00:08

@Thor665 wrote:
Considering that Dissies are pretty much objectively superior I'd be willing to pay a bit more for them than for Lances.

No one is going to bring nothing but lances just because lances are now 15 points and disintegrators are 20.

However people might put lances on their Raiders and perhaps 1 Ravager which would add some depth and variety.

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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Wed Sep 05 2018, 00:14

I find myself intrigued by the contingent of 9 warriors in "The NOVA Winning List".

Do you think the chap was aware that Auxiliary Detachments don't unlock stratagems?

Because I find myself wondering if he was just including them for the Agents of Vect stratagem.


In any case, I think it's noteworthy that, in spite of people complaining that Warriors are too cheap, they only made it into a single list, and then just a single unit of 9.

Also, do you think there's any chance that GW will notice that Archons seem to serve no purpose beyond standing at the back of the table, boring Ravager pilots to death with Vect's poetry?

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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Wed Sep 05 2018, 00:22

Anything that Dark Eldar might have had that was mechanically flawed was grossly overshadowed by Knights, Smash Captains, Shield Captains, Guard mortar spam, and Rick & Morty lists. I heard the head judge referring to the Dark Eldar codex as one of the most balanced, well written books in the game and wishing all other books were at its level since virtually everything in it can be used somehow. I explained the HQs sucked and they were like "eh".

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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Wed Sep 05 2018, 00:35

I have a party boat of my tax Archon's that ride around.

They can sometimes earn their points back? But that's only by index equipping them with Blasters and having their shadowfield eat overwatch so I can keep another Wych in the fight.

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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Wed Sep 05 2018, 10:59

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
I find myself intrigued by the contingent of 9 warriors in "The NOVA Winning List".

Do you think the chap was aware that Auxiliary Detachments don't unlock stratagems?

Because I find myself wondering if he was just including them for the Agents of Vect stratagem.

He was, NOVA ruled that a proper Drukhari detachment plus a Black Heart auxiliary was enough to unlock Vect.


@Soulless Samurai wrote:
In any case, I think it's noteworthy that, in spite of people complaining that Warriors are too cheap, they only made it into a single list, and then just a single unit of 9.

You also don't see any Venoms, which have been seeing massive complaints online for ages. I think the explanation for this is simple - the Knight/Guard/Smash Captain list is incredibly strong against both of them, so there's no reason to take Venoms or Kabalites outside of edge cases like Nanavati's.

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Also, do you think there's any chance that GW will notice that Archons seem to serve no purpose beyond standing at the back of the table, boring Ravager pilots to death with Vect's poetry?

God, I hope so.
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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Thu Sep 06 2018, 09:40

Still using Archons with success. Just use them as sacrificable tarpit units/taking objective etc.
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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Thu Sep 06 2018, 10:09

@Cerve wrote:
Still using Archons with success. Just use them as sacrificable tarpit units/taking objective etc.

Wow, what great design for our army leader.

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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Thu Sep 06 2018, 10:31

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Still using Archons with success. Just use them as sacrificable tarpit units/taking objective etc.

Wow, what great design for our army leader.

An evil, coward, opportunist, coldheart leader? Yeah it fit pretty well.

Not sure to see Archons as glorious condottieri, ready to charge in first line. They are more politics, which prefer to stay back and laugh from their chairs.


Even because usually who you deploy are lesser Archons. The big ones stays on Commorragh sending lessers ones to fight for them.
My big issue is the Archon Court. Archons should be good fighters (which they are) but they should let their Court fight for them. Hope they will fix Court units into 1-4. with 1 unit per Archon. The 3x limit hit them pretty hard.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Thu Sep 06 2018, 11:13

I hope they fix our entire HQ section!

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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Thu Sep 06 2018, 11:21

@Cerve wrote:

An evil, coward, opportunist, coldheart leader? Yeah it fit pretty well.

Yeah, they really seem like the type to sacrifice themselves for the good of the mission. Neutral


@Cerve wrote:

Not sure to see Archons as glorious condottieri, ready to charge in first line. They are more politics, which prefer to stay back and laugh from their chairs.

So why are they running in to tarpit enemies and even sacrificing themselves?


@Cerve wrote:
Even because usually who you deploy are lesser Archons. The big ones stays on Commorragh sending lessers ones to fight for them.

But even if these are not the most powerful Archons, surely they don't abandon all survival instinct and become completely altruistic the moment they leave Commorragh?


@Cerve wrote:

My big issue is the Archon Court. Archons should be good fighters (which they are) but they should let their Court fight for them. Hope they will fix Court units into 1-4. with 1 unit per Archon. The 3x limit hit them pretty hard.

I'm not sure I'd agree that Archons are good fighters. I'd say that they're okay at best. Regardless, I think the main issues are:
- Lack of any mobility outside of transports.
- Lack of support abilities. If you consider Archons to be more about politics and such, then give them a better way to help their men (not just a crummy aura).

I'll make the same suggestion I've made before, replace the Archon's aura with:
Our Prey is Near
At the beginning of your movement phase, you may choose a single enemy unit within 18" of the Archon (or within 18" of the Archon's transport, if he's embarked in one). Friendly [Kabal] and Mercenary units reroll 1s to hit against the chosen unit until the beginning of your next turn.

This has several advantages over the aura:
- It works from a transport.
- It can affect units inside transports.
- It makes the Court of the Archon's reroll rule actually worthwhile.
- It allows you to spread out your army more.
- It means that you can take multiple Archons without them being redundant.

(I've included Mercenary units because, quite frankly, the leader of our army should be able to affect more than the pitiful number of units he's currently able to.)

It also means he has to play forward to use his ability and would (with any luck) encourage people to do more with him than just shove him at the back of the table with 3 Ravagers. Razz


Anyway, with regard to the Court of the Archon, I agree that it should be 1-4 per Archon (and the individual models should not be subject to the stupid Rule of Three). However, I think a bigger issue is that the Court is very confused in terms of actual role.
- Lhamaeans are basically fine. The Archon is a melee unit and these give him some assassins.
- Sslyth make sense in terms of fluff, but far less sense in terms of actual gameplay. The problem is, Archons in the fluff are a really big deal and it's only fitting that they'd want loyal bodyguards around them. However, in the actual game, Archons are often going to be one of your least important units. And, as you said earlier, they're often just used as throwaway units. So why would you want to buy a bodyguard for them? It would be like buying a bodyguard for a kamikaze pilot. Wink
Put simply, for Sslyth to be worthwhile, Archons need to be a unit that's actually worthy of protection. I think my above change could help with this - since it would both make Archons more useful and force them to come closer to the units they want to mark.
- Medusae are weird unit that are just full of anti-synergy. They seem designed almost as a suicide/sacrificial unit . . . yet they want to have an HQ with them. Are they meant to do drive-by shootings? If so then they'll never get the rerolls from an Archon, even if he's sitting right next to them in the Venom. Are they supposed to stand near the Archon, softening up targets before he engages them? Maybe, but then that seems a good way of pushing units out of melee range. What's more, all it takes is for one of those enemy models to engage the Medusae and they're screwed.
I think, at the very least, Medusae weapons need to gain the Pistol type - so that they can still fire them in melee. It would also help them (and Sslyth) if the gained rerolls for being embarked on the same transport as an Archon.
- Ur-Ghuls are decent against GEQ infantry (and then only on the charge and only with an Archon nearby) but terrible against everything else. I think their weapons need a bit more oomph (AP-1 at the very least), because as it stands there are far too few targets that they meaningfully threaten.

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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Thu Sep 06 2018, 11:47

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Cerve wrote:

An evil, coward, opportunist, coldheart leader? Yeah it fit pretty well.

Yeah, they really seem like the type to sacrifice themselves for the good of the mission. Neutral


@Cerve wrote:

Not sure to see Archons as glorious condottieri, ready to charge in first line. They are more politics, which prefer to stay back and laugh from their chairs.

So why are they running in to tarpit enemies and even sacrificing themselves?


@Cerve wrote:
Even because usually who you deploy are lesser Archons. The big ones stays on Commorragh sending lessers ones to fight for them.

But even if these are not the most powerful Archons, surely they don't abandon all survival instinct and become completely altruistic the moment they leave Commorragh?


@Cerve wrote:

My big issue is the Archon Court. Archons should be good fighters (which they are) but they should let their Court fight for them. Hope they will fix Court units into 1-4. with 1 unit per Archon. The 3x limit hit them pretty hard.

I'm not sure I'd agree that Archons are good fighters. I'd say that they're okay at best. Regardless, I think the main issues are:
- Lack of any mobility outside of transports.
- Lack of support abilities. If you consider Archons to be more about politics and such, then give them a better way to help their men (not just a crummy aura).

I'll make the same suggestion I've made before, replace the Archon's aura with:
Our Prey is Near
At the beginning of your movement phase, you may choose a single enemy unit within 18" of the Archon (or within 18" of the Archon's transport, if he's embarked in one). Friendly [Kabal] and Mercenary units reroll 1s to hit against the chosen unit until the beginning of your next turn.

This has several advantages over the aura:
- It works from a transport.
- It can affect units inside transports.
- It makes the Court of the Archon's reroll rule actually worthwhile.
- It allows you to spread out your army more.
- It means that you can take multiple Archons without them being redundant.

(I've included Mercenary units because, quite frankly, the leader of our army should be able to affect more than the pitiful number of units he's currently able to.)

It also means he has to play forward to use his ability and would (with any luck) encourage people to do more with him than just shove him at the back of the table with 3 Ravagers. Razz


Anyway, with regard to the Court of the Archon, I agree that it should be 1-4 per Archon (and the individual models should not be subject to the stupid Rule of Three). However, I think a bigger issue is that the Court is very confused in terms of actual role.
- Lhamaeans are basically fine. The Archon is a melee unit and these give him some assassins.
- Sslyth make sense in terms of fluff, but far less sense in terms of actual gameplay. The problem is, Archons in the fluff are a really big deal and it's only fitting that they'd want loyal bodyguards around them. However, in the actual game, Archons are often going to be one of your least important units. And, as you said earlier, they're often just used as throwaway units. So why would you want to buy a bodyguard for them? It would be like buying a bodyguard for a kamikaze pilot. Wink
Put simply, for Sslyth to be worthwhile, Archons need to be a unit that's actually worthy of protection. I think my above change could help with this - since it would both make Archons more useful and force them to come closer to the units they want to mark.
- Medusae are weird unit that are just full of anti-synergy. They seem designed almost as a suicide/sacrificial unit . . . yet they want to have an HQ with them. Are they meant to do drive-by shootings? If so then they'll never get the rerolls from an Archon, even if he's sitting right next to them in the Venom. Are they supposed to stand near the Archon, softening up targets before he engages them? Maybe, but then that seems a good way of pushing units out of melee range. What's more, all it takes is for one of those enemy models to engage the Medusae and they're screwed.
I think, at the very least, Medusae weapons need to gain the Pistol type - so that they can still fire them in melee. It would also help them (and Sslyth) if the gained rerolls for being embarked on the same transport as an Archon.
- Ur-Ghuls are decent against GEQ infantry (and then only on the charge and only with an Archon nearby) but terrible against everything else. I think their weapons need a bit more oomph (AP-1 at the very least), because as it stands there are far too few targets that they meaningfully threaten.



Because....I can see the Archaon as a "unit" with his Court, as is Haemi+Talos/Grots. In that case, I can see 4 Member Court+Archon into Venom (or Raider) ad doing something well. The reroll to hit is huge, but being single units is bad.
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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Thu Sep 06 2018, 14:35

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I hope they fix our entire HQ section!

One of the key issues that I think our HQs are seeing is that they're all melee units which can't stand up to Custodes Bikers or Smash Captains at all.

If the Imperium's heavy hitters get toned down a bit (and they almost certainly will in some way) then we might be in a slightly better spot.
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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Thu Sep 06 2018, 14:48

If you want the archon to be useful in a non-fighting way, as it should in the fluff, just remove their aura and give them:

"Master strategist: at the beginning of your turn, roll a D6. On a 6, you gain a CP "

That way, they'll be in your backfield, devising your raid and you'll want to protect them as long as you can.
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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Thu Sep 06 2018, 14:54

transport capacity of 11 in raiders and 6 in venoms would also be nice
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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Thu Sep 06 2018, 15:04

@dumpeal wrote:
If you want the archon to be useful in a non-fighting way, as it should in the fluff, just remove their aura and give them:

"Master strategist: at the beginning of your turn, roll a D6. On a 6, you gain a CP "

That way, they'll be in your backfield, devising your raid and you'll want to protect them as long as you can.

Is there a reason he'd need to lose his aura for that, given that Autarchs get both?

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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Thu Sep 06 2018, 16:47

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
If you want the archon to be useful in a non-fighting way, as it should in the fluff, just remove their aura and give them:

"Master strategist: at the beginning of your turn, roll a D6. On a 6, you gain a CP "

That way, they'll be in your backfield, devising your raid and you'll want to protect them as long as you can.

Is there a reason he'd need to lose his aura for that, given that Autarchs get both?


Even with just "+1 CP on a 6" I can already hear people complaining about how OP dark eldar would be.
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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Thu Sep 06 2018, 18:36

@dumpeal wrote:
If you want the archon to be useful in a non-fighting way, as it should in the fluff, just remove their aura and give them:

"Master strategist: at the beginning of your turn, roll a D6. On a 6, you gain a CP "

That way, they'll be in your backfield, devising your raid and you'll want to protect them as long as you can.

That's sort of what they're doing already, with writ of the living muse and 3 ravagers.   Razz

Archons, like all DE, are supposed to be the epitome of Eldar physical prowess. An Archon who can't quickly kill a traitor in combat who is literally attempting to stab him in the back is not going to be an Archon for long. They may be deep into politics, but they are also supposed to be able to back up their scheming with action, both direct and indirect. The only time they're supposed to be outclassed in close combat is when they're up against something like, say, Succubi. They're also old, so they need to be in the thick of the action in order to get any soul-sustenance off of the raid, so it makes perfect sense for them to lead from the front (or at least the middle).
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PostSubject: Re: NOVA Top Lists   Thu Sep 06 2018, 20:55

The Archon feels kind of clunky but I don't think our HQs need to be capable of herohammer levels of power, we already have an army that synergizes really well and is balanced and strong. I miss being able to jack an Archon up on Combat Drugs and slice through units of ANYthing but that just feels like overkill now - how combat capable would an Archon have to be to outweigh regenerating CP and re-rolling 1s to wound aura?

Like...if Eternal Hatred/Djinn Blade Archons don't do enough to merit running over LabCunn/Writ Archons, then what does a combat Archon need to be able to do to make it a more viable choice?

Base S4/Killier Huskblade? Re-rolls for Shadowfields? More weapon options?

An Eternal Hatred/Djinn Blade Archon has enough steam to kill a MEQ character in an average round of combat...that seems good to me, I would rather our 'obvious' go-to choices (LabCunn/Writ) just get tempered.

CP regeneration tactics/items could probably do to just be replaced with static CP bonuses...
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