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 The value of flyers

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: The value of flyers   Sat Aug 18 2018, 19:37

Typically with my brigade list I'll run a Black Heart flyer wing for an extra CP and some much-needed long range firepower consisting of a Voidraven and 2 Jetfighters. However, recent rules revelations regarding a tournament I plan on attending mean I no longer need the Black Heart detachment to unlock Agents of Vect. This means I can drop some of the flyers for other options.

The obvious alternative is 3 Ravagers, which would leave me 60 points to monkey with other things in the list. The problem is I don't know if raw firepower is enough. I like the mortal wound bomb of the Voidraven, and I like the flexibility of the Razorwings, but the power output of the Ravagers is clear. Should I opt for the 9 disintegrators, or keep the tactical flexibility of the flyers?

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: The value of flyers   Sun Aug 19 2018, 00:08

Why not do both? Very Happy

The advantage of flyers over Ravagers is that they are more durable, and have a lot of nice value in being able to roadblock enemy advances that you could otherwise find bothersome (I like parking 1-2 razorwings in front of a Knight and forcing him to walk around to try to get at the rest of my army). The -1 to hit combos well with our -1 to hit stratagem and adds to the durability, and the firepower output is very similar.

The advantage of Ravagers is they're affordable and put out a lot of great shooting.

I build my army generally with both options (because I think 6 flyer Dissies and 9 Ravager Dissies is the real win) but if I could only bring one due to point restrictions I'd bring the Ravagers. At the end of the day durability and blocking are nice - but I have always found offense to be the best defense for DE - and having more guns for less points on the board has always seemed more valuable than having slightly harder to kill guns.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: The value of flyers   Sun Aug 19 2018, 00:46

Well that's where the real decision comes in as this is a sliding scale I'm dealing with. I can have up to 3 flyers and up to 3 Ravagers but not both, not unless I'm willing to drop my Talos which, considering the list I have, I think the Talos are invaluable. Dropping one Razorwing Jetfighter for one Ravager would cost me 1CP and the Black Heart obsession on the other two flyers for the benefit of another disintegrator and another scoring model. This clearly isn't the best choice. But dropping 2 Razorwings and replacing them with 2 Ravagers is another matter entirely. That would allow me to shove all 3 of my Talos together into one unit, give my Archon something to do in the backfield, and give me 20 more points to play with which, along with some finagling, would allow me to turn 2 Wrack squads into one big one, giving me better use of Black Cornucopians.

So really the question turns into whether I want 3 flyers with an obsession and 1 more CP or do I want 2 Ravagers and 1 flyer with no obsessions and no extra CP but the knock-on benefit of optimizing my list format.

This is some fine-grain sandpaper I'm rubbing on this list so I'm not sure there's a "best" option so much as one that's situationally better more often in the current meta. I will say that the flyers have a few benefits that can't really be measured numerically. Like you said, they can be used to block charges by simply getting in the way, but they can also create zones of denial in the opponent's back field so they cannot deep strike units turn 1 into their own deployment zone.

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PostSubject: Re: The value of flyers   Sun Aug 19 2018, 15:34

Flyers do bring excellent benefits by nature of how they interact on the tabletop but your other optimization thoughts sound like they're overall better for your list in more situations to me.

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PostSubject: Re: The value of flyers   Sun Aug 26 2018, 01:44

They are useful against first turn ambush chargers like Stygies VII and Genestealers. They carry a good bit of firepower for their cost (razors have disintogrators and a lot of poison, bombers have the only ranged S9 we have and a one time mortal wound bomb). Their speed allows for opportune assassinations. They have innate minus to hit that stacks with Lightning Reflexes. 3 can be taken as a black heart detachment and give you the Vect stratagem.
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strokzface
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PostSubject: Re: The value of flyers   Thu Aug 30 2018, 15:48

Tangent, but I'm surprised that they're letting you use Agents of Vect without a Black Heart detachment. I've had this argument with other Drukhari players and my local meta says you must have it in order to use it. If they're letting you do it, that's good because it only helps you.

The argument for using Agents of Vect without a <BLACK HEART> detachment is that since it doesn't target a <BLACK HEART> unit, it can be used by anyone. But this ignores the fact that Agents of Vect is a <BLACK HEART> stratagem, not <DRUKHARI>, so it NEEDS a <BLACK HEART> detachment to "unlock" it. It's the same reason why, for example, Thousand Sons armies can't use Tide of Traitors on their Chaos Cultists without an accompanying CSM detachment; if we employ the same logic they should be able to. Or why Questor Mechanicus knights can't use Adeptus Mechanicus stratagems without having a detachment.
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Gorgon
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PostSubject: Re: The value of flyers   Thu Aug 30 2018, 17:33

@strokzface wrote:
Tangent, but I'm surprised that they're letting you use Agents of Vect without a Black Heart detachment. I've had this argument with other Drukhari players and my local meta says you must have it in order to use it. If they're letting you do it, that's good because it only helps you.

The argument for using Agents of Vect without a <BLACK HEART> detachment is that since it doesn't target a <BLACK HEART> unit, it can be used by anyone. But this ignores the fact that Agents of Vect is a <BLACK HEART> stratagem, not <DRUKHARI>, so it NEEDS a <BLACK HEART> detachment to "unlock" it. It's the same reason why, for example, Thousand Sons armies can't use Tide of Traitors on their Chaos Cultists without an accompanying CSM detachment; if we employ the same logic they should be able to. Or why Questor Mechanicus knights can't use Adeptus Mechanicus stratagems without having a detachment.

The counter argument is that in ynnari/alaitoc lists in the competitive scene, the saim-hann stratagem gets used on the shining spears in the ynnari detachmen. I get using Vect without any black heart is sketchy, though RAW as far as I can read, but as long as you have one unit you should be able to use it.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: The value of flyers   Mon Sep 03 2018, 12:57

Saim-Hann is an invalid argument because it has a keyword target and FAQed Ynnari rules specifically allow stratagems.

Anyway, regardless of the argument, it has been universally ruled as requiring a detachment for every major convention and tournament, and by extension a significant chunk of local metas (particularly those in tune with national competitive scene). If your local group does it differently and you never intend to play at cons, more power to you, show them the error of their ways! Some places ignore FAQs, others don’t allow index units, others only allow index armies, etc.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: The value of flyers   Mon Sep 03 2018, 18:17

I would put money on the new FAQ coming out clarifying that you only need a Black Heart unit, not a detachment, to access Agents of Vect.

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: The value of flyers   Tue Sep 11 2018, 13:48

If we're going back to the whole AOV argument, here are the cliff-notes.

AoV along with all Drukhari Stratagems are unlocked by the existence of any DRUKHARI detachment in your army, as detailed on page 118 of the Codex.

These stratagems are also made available by a YNNARI DRUKHARI detachment as detailed by the FAQ.

Further Discourse Here:
 

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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: The value of flyers   Fri Sep 28 2018, 20:14

@Ikol wrote:
If we're going back to the whole AOV argument, here are the cliff-notes.

AoV along with all Drukhari Stratagems are unlocked by the existence of any DRUKHARI detachment in your army, as detailed on page 118 of the Codex.

These stratagems are also made available by a YNNARI DRUKHARI detachment as detailed by the FAQ.

Further Discourse Here:
 


Well the FAQ just made everything crystal clear. You need a Black Hearth unit on the map to get access to AOV.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: The value of flyers   Fri Sep 28 2018, 21:00

Yeah but now AoV costs 33% more and you can't regen CP for all intents and purposes. Unless you're stopping Tide of Traitors or something similar, Agents of Vect is now tactical suicide.

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