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 Unit leaders now included? And a few other questions.

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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Unit leaders now included? And a few other questions.    Mon Aug 13 2018, 22:13

Hi, this might be an 8th question rather than a DE question.

I notice in the entry for Kabalites, Wyches and Wracks, each unit is comprised of the troops and one leader, either the Sybarite, Hekatric, or Acothyst. But those models dont appear in the points list. Are they just part of the unit now, costing simply as much as any other model? I always remember them being a choice (and usually a very bad one). In addition, which wargear is the best all round choice for each of them?

I was also wondering if I should be giving the kabalites DLs or blasters, given that I plan to have a squad of 4 blasterborn (and one other trueborn) as an anti vehicle squad. I feel like my Kabalites should remain as splinter rifle 10 man squads on raiders for soft target suppression as in the good old days.

And it looks like Wyches are back (for the first time since 4th ed!) but am I right in thinking they are not vehicle killers any more? They are for dropping near enemy soft units and wrecking them in melee?

Finally, are Wracks ever worth taking? Even in a small Coven detachment? My knowledge of coven troops is very minimal.
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Shride
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders now included? And a few other questions.    Tue Aug 14 2018, 13:28

Unit leaders simply cost the same as members of their unit for the vast majority of units in 8th edition.

Conventional (read: people on the internet) wisdom says Blasters over Lances.  Blasters are phenomenal in Kabalite squads.  Drukhari mobility will let you get quite a lot of usage out of them, without suffering the penalties for moving you'll get form Dark Lances.  And for cheaper.  If you plan to use 10 man units with Blasters in a Raider, it might be better to use 2 five man units in that Raider, so you'll be less vulnerable to morale losses and, if needed, be able to split up and capture multiple objectives.  

Wyches are greatly improved from the last few editions.  They are one of two units with Plasma grenades, to be able to use the Haywire Grenade strategem, but that is about the extent of their ability to deal with vehicles with any amount of efficiency.  They excel at tying soft, shooty units up in combat with Shardnet/Impaler and keeping them from shooting, but still have the issue of being fragile.

Prophets of Flesh Wracks supported by a Haemonculus are T5, with a 4++/6+++, 3 attacks each, unit leader with access to pretty good weapons if you want to pay for them, and have ObSec.  They are a solid troop choice, and harder to shift than a lot of people realize. If you ask me, they are better than Wyches in this edition.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders now included? And a few other questions.    Tue Aug 14 2018, 13:31

@albions-angel wrote:
Hi, this might be an 8th question rather than a DE question.

I notice in the entry for Kabalites, Wyches and Wracks, each unit is comprised of the troops and one leader, either the Sybarite, Hekatric, or Acothyst. But those models dont appear in the points list. Are they just part of the unit now, costing simply as much as any other model? I always remember them being a choice (and usually a very bad one).
They used to be an upgrade option - now they are indeed folded into the cost of the unit.

@albions-angel wrote:
In addition, which wargear is the best all round choice for each of them?
This really can depend on what you're doing with them, but generally I give my Sybs nothing, the Succubus an Aggie, and the Acothyst an Electrocorrosive Whip or nothing.

@albions-angel wrote:
I was also wondering if I should be giving the kabalites DLs or blasters, given that I plan to have a squad of 4 blasterborn (and one other trueborn) as an anti vehicle squad. I feel like my Kabalites should remain as splinter rifle 10 man squads on raiders for soft target suppression as in the good old days.
I go all Blasters, but then I don't run Trueborn anymore.
This, agian, depends on what you're going to be doing with them, but frankly if you're planning to use the splinter rifles that sounds like you're moving around with them a lot, so why not take the Blaster as it will not get -1 to hit, not really suffer due to loss of range since you'll be getting into 12-24" range anyway, and is cheaper.

@albions-angel wrote:
And it looks like Wyches are back (for the first time since 4th ed!) but am I right in thinking they are not vehicle killers any more? They are for dropping near enemy soft units and wrecking them in melee?
Wyches haven't been vehicle killers since 5th and that remains true today - they remain lockdown units and melee options.

@albions-angel wrote:
Finally, are Wracks ever worth taking? Even in a small Coven detachment? My knowledge of coven troops is very minimal.
If you're not just going for a Grot bomb than Wracks can be useful as a Troop option. They are durable for objective holding or can serve as screening units due to durability and affordability.

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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders now included? And a few other questions.    Tue Aug 14 2018, 15:52

Thanks all!

I wrote one of those qs a bit ambiguously. When I asked baster or DL, I meant "if I am running a trueborn blaster force, and want my Kabalites for Splinter rifle stuff, do I need to give them anything, or should I ALWAYS give one of them a blaster."

And it sounds like 5 man squads of kabalites are better than 10 man? Is that always the case?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders now included? And a few other questions.    Tue Aug 14 2018, 18:02

@albions-angel wrote:
Thanks all!

I wrote one of those qs a bit ambiguously. When I asked baster or DL, I meant "if I am running a trueborn blaster force, and want my Kabalites for Splinter rifle stuff, do I need to give them anything, or should I ALWAYS give one of them a blaster."
There are very few army building rules that qualify as ALWAYS true.
That said, the Blaster is a very powerful and affordable weapon, and with split fire being a thing there are generally not a lot of reasons to not take one.
But you could run them bare or with a Shredder if your only goal is to have them pew-pew at infantry and/or to save points.

@albions-angel wrote:
And it sounds like 5 man squads of kabalites are better than 10 man? Is that always the case?
No, it is not always the case, for instance, in a killpoint based situation 1 squad of ten with 2 blasters is arguably superior to 2 squads of 5 with 1 blaster each.
That said, with the way morale works, and how you can game deployment by having units inside vehicles, and the added versatility for objectives multiple squads bring I personally tend to favor five man squads.

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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders now included? And a few other questions.    Tue Aug 14 2018, 19:00

Ok, sorry for all the questions. Part of it is trying to catch up with a new system (when the last one I played was 4th!). Part of it is I am building some more models.

So my thoughts are, in each box, try and make 2 regular kabalites take blasters (will need to mod the shredder), that way I can have either 2 5 man squads with one blaster each, or one 10 man squad with 2 blasters. And I will make up some regular Sybarites (so I guess another rifle?). Maybe I will either kitbash or buy an extra 2 Sybarite models that I can keep in a box somewhere for when I want 5 man squads. Though there is enough stuff in a single kit for 2 backplates with flares on, so I could built 2 sybarites per box, and simply declare which one is a sybarite on the day, especially if its just with rifles.

So to be clear, pistol and agoniser or powersword is too situational to build the models like that? (I know, I know, I can build them however I want...). Though with the way the codex is written, agoniser doesnt replace anything... so I could cut the arm off and slap the weapon on the model? Then he could use it in the fight phase?

Wait a minute. Ive just read some entries again and... do ANY of our models get a pistol AND another ranged weapon?

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders now included? And a few other questions.    Tue Aug 14 2018, 20:45

Obsidian Rose likes 10-man units, if only for their morale stratagem. For them I would actually strongly consider not taking a PGL on the Sybarite, and have him die first to keep their leadership lower.

Regarding the heavy weapon a 10-man unit unlocks, I keep going back and forth whether a mobile BS4 dark lance is worth 20 points. It seems expensive for what is available in the Drukhari list, but my guard pay that for a static BS4 lascannon all day, every day.

As far as the splinter cannon is concerned, for Obsessions that benefit from rapid fire or poison (Flayed Skull and Poisoned Tongue), the cannons add more shots and range to a unit.  You could alternatively gain an effective extra 2 rifles by taking splinter racks (so you can still do 2x5 units for the same firepower). These options are equivalent at <12" or >18" range.

If you're dancing at the maximum 18" range for your blasters, a cannon adds effectively 5 splinter rifle shots to a unit, which is pretty nice, and can't be matched by the splinter racks.

Back to Obsidian Rose, I really like their splinter cannons (since you already want 10-man unit) with a 21" rapid fire range, AND take splinter racks too. My only regret is that splinter racks don't work with cannons. Sad
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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders now included? And a few other questions.    Tue Aug 14 2018, 21:07

Ok, worth knowing. Ill probably go blaster for now (only got 2 boxes of kabalites) but Ill keep cannons in mind for later. And a stratagem that relies on FAILING moral. Thats cool I guess?

Any answer for if we have pistols AND rifles?

Do you mind going into how the cannon adds FIVE shots? I can get to 4 (3 from the weapon, 1 from rapid fire). But not 5.

And same for splinter racks adding 2. Dont they DOUBLE shots?
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders now included? And a few other questions.    Fri Aug 17 2018, 13:40

@albions-angel wrote:
Ok, worth knowing. Ill probably go blaster for now (only got 2 boxes of kabalites) but Ill keep cannons in mind for later. And a stratagem that relies on FAILING moral. Thats cool I guess?

Any answer for if we have pistols AND rifles?

Do you mind going into how the cannon adds FIVE shots? I can get to 4 (3 from the weapon, 1 from rapid fire). But not 5.

And same for splinter racks adding 2. Dont they DOUBLE shots?
Splinter Cannon is Rapid Fire 3, so in half range you get 6 shots as the number is doubled. Splinter Racks let 6's to hit on Splinter Rifles and Pistols count as 2 hits, remember though that they don't work on the splinter cannon.

A units entry will tell you what wargear they have, if doesn't mention pistols then they haven't got pistols.

Regarding your earlier questions about upgrades for Warriors, it really does depend on spare points and what else you are running. You've said you are going to be taking trueborn with Blasters, in that case only add Balsters to Warrior squads once you've sorted out the core of your army, the units and their loadouts that you will absolutely be taking. Thats the point where you can start spending points on upgrades for Warriors for extra Blasters or Shredders, depending on whether you feel you need more anti-tank or anti-infantry. And I wouldn't go modding those Shredders just yet, my Shredderborn units have been one of my absolute gold standard units, right up there with Talos and Ravagers doing serious work every game.

As for Splinter Cannons, I never take them, they're just not worth 10pts, which is the same as a Hurricane Bolter but with half the shots. The only time I'd ever consider them is in an Obsidian Rose Venom Spam list where you want to maximise the RF range of the Venoms (21 instead of 18").
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders now included? And a few other questions.    Fri Aug 17 2018, 16:29

@albions-angel wrote:
Ok, worth knowing. Ill probably go blaster for now (only got 2 boxes of kabalites) but Ill keep cannons in mind for later. And a stratagem that relies on FAILING moral. Thats cool I guess?

Any answer for if we have pistols AND rifles?

Do you mind going into how the cannon adds FIVE shots? I can get to 4 (3 from the weapon, 1 from rapid fire). But not 5.

And same for splinter racks adding 2. Dont they DOUBLE shots?

I don't hate the splinter cannons like many of my fellow Archons. It's adding the firepower of two more warriors (12 points), for 10 points.  It's actually the same amount of shots as a hurricane bolter, except at more significant range.  So in my example above, it's a matter of shooting one rifleshot vs. 6 rifle shots at 18" (or 21" with Obsidian Rose).

Splinter racks effectively add a pair of rifles, as long as you have 7-8 rifles in the Raider to take advantage of them. What I meant by this, is that as long as you have those 7-8 rifles firing with splinter racks, the additional shots generated should be roughly equal to as if you had an extra pair of warriors firing regularly.
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