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 Dealing with Imperial Knights

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Elfric
Hellion
Elfric

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Join date : 2018-03-04

PostSubject: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Sat Jul 21 2018, 10:47

In my opinion, Imperial Knights are the best faction in the game currently. I have a formidable amount of Dark Eldar and Harlequins and I find I can deal with most armies pretty well, but Knights are a really, really tough nut to crack.

I've played three games in a row recently against Knights and lost all of them. The first game I was using a heavily mechanised Ork list which got tabled.

I then played a pure DE list, and I lost, but the game was more even (I made the mistake of not DS'ing Ravagers).

My third game was DE and Harlequins and while I lost, it was something like 16pts to 14pts so a lot closer.

Admittedly the Knights player is our best player and he's even said that he feels Drukhari/Harlequins is the only army at our club that can challenge his Knights.

How is everyone else doing against them? What Kabals are you running? I know people will say take as much Anti tank as possible, but I want to build a list that handle all comers, including the Knights. Is it better to play the objective game and try and ignore, completely bully one? The 4++ boosted to 3++ is really good for them, and at T8 with 24 wounds, it takes insane firepower to bring down one, let alone 3. Not being able to DS in their deployment zone on Turn 1 works really well for them also.
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Kantalla
Wych
Kantalla

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Join date : 2015-12-21

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Sat Jul 21 2018, 11:59

Knights are an interesting matchup.

Covens with Talos and Grotesques do well against them.

Kabal can be effective, particularly if supported by Craftworld psychic powers. Normally I like to run a troop heavy Kabal fleet, but if you do that you are paying a lot of points for things that aren't that effective against Knights.

Knights are an opponent where you probably want your Ravagers split apart, even if you wont benefit from the Archon aura and Writ as a result.

A list I think should work well against Knights would be:
Black Heart Spearhead (Archon, 3 Ravagers, 3 units Haywire Scourges)
Prophets of Flesh Battalion (Urien, Haemonculus, 3 units Wracks, Grotesques, 3 Talos)
Alaitoc Battalion (Farseer, Warlock, 3 units Rangers)

That should be able to squeeze into 2000 points.

With Doom and Jinx the Ravagers (with Disintegrators) and the Scourges are extremely efficient at killing Knights at range, and the Grotesques and Talos can handle them if they come to you. Wracks and Rangers can grab objectives or screen your other forces a little.

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Thor665
Archon
Thor665

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Sat Jul 21 2018, 12:50

@Elfric wrote:
How is everyone else doing against them? What Kabals are you running? I know people will say take as much Anti tank as possible, but I want to build a list that handle all comers, including the Knights. Is it better to play the objective game and try and ignore, completely bully one? The 4++ boosted to 3++ is really good for them, and at T8 with 24 wounds, it takes insane firepower to bring down one, let alone 3. Not being able to DS in their deployment zone on Turn 1 works really well for them also.
I've been having great success against Knights with my default build.

To just rough it in;

Tourney List:
 

Generally against straight Knights my strategy is as follows;

1. I'm not statistically likely to get first turn (since those jerks will have like 4-8 drops) so I deploy along the back edge - I'm fast enough to still come up and hit them, especially if they advance at all.
2. I deploy further up if possible by LOS blocking.
3. I try to seize - I'm fast enough to take advantage even if I deploy as above.
4. Dissies are great versus Knights - especially en masse and focused, hit on 3+ wound on 5+ 2 damage base.
5. I focus fire - pick a primary target and pour firepower into him, if my opponent pops his +1 save stratagy to get a 3++ I switch targets unless I'm very close to killing the Knight in question (usually on Turn 1 they seem to wait till it's halfway dead - try to fire Dissies first and Blasters 2nd, they often seem to wait for big Blaster targets)
6. The Wyches are used as screening units. Rush them up, Raiders fire Dissies, Wyches hop out and form conga lines to block up access paths.
7. The Jetfighters are your second type of blocking unit - park in intersections the Knights want to go through, whizz by their faces, save the -1 hit stratagem to confound them, Knights suffer killing fliers, and RWJs are both a threat and a way to control board space.
8. The Succubus can happily assault a Knight (have her Raider absorb the overwatch), take +1 A drug on her and enjoy 5 attacks hitting on 2+ (re-rolling 1s) wounding on 5+ and watch as the Knight realizes your tiny Wych is headbutting him to death at the ankles.
9. The main goal is to bully one Knight to death each turn while obligating the Knights to mostly only get their shooting as a way to fight you - this will really lower their ability to kill you quickly.
10. As vehicles become too wounded they become good additional blocking elements.

I generally find my Dissies can saw away 10-15 wounds a turn depending on the point value, the Blasters generally help finish off a Knight or make it so wounded it's useless, the Scourges popping in Turn 2 (or depending on Knight movement Turn 1 if they can get a shot) are an excellent tool, and a great way to control the +1 invuln stratagy. I reckon if you go Black Heart Agents of Vect is also a good tool to mangle that effect.

The core goal is if I can kill/maul into semi-useless a Knight each turn, they generally have a hard time generating enough firepower to maul me back in reply. Also assuredly on objective games, by the end when I'm maybe weakened down to a handful of units but they're down to 1-2 Knights I easily win on holding points.

If the Knights bring along support in the way of IG, or Marines, et al the basic above strategy is the same - you just need to adapt it for what they're bringing as support. I usually find that focus dakka-ing the support tends to make for a good first turn (also gives the Wyches something fun to do than annoying Knight ankles) though I only do this really if the support has dangerous shooting elements. If they're more just blobs to hold stuff I tend to try to ignore them till the end as they aren't helping the Knights decrease my firepower.

Hope some of that spiel helps - I think target saturation and the ability to restrict Knight's movement are very powerful in getting victories over them, and if, like me, you build a force that lacks a beefy point sink Death Star, a lot of their firepower is overkill and/or able to be shrugged off a third of the time via our saves (hi Vulkan and multi-meltas!) which makes us a very tricky and nasty fight for them.

I think Harlies are too elite to do well, they're the type of expensive unit Knights like - one small unit that is a lot of points that they can wipe in one turn of focused fire. Cheap units that can all hurt them are a Knight's nightmare.

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Bugs_N_Orks
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Sat Jul 21 2018, 12:55

I don’t think pure DE really have what it takes to bring down 3 of the new big knights. And their damage output is really rough to deal with. A full army is definitely a problem for pure DE, Talos haywire can deal with 1, and talos in CC will put a decent number of wounds on a knight with urien and the reroll wounds strat. You definitely need to use all the normal tricks for dealing with big stuff: play the mission, hide your squishy stuff, ignore as much as you can, focus down 1 thing at a time, sacrifice throwaway units for mission points when you need to. I’ve been a big fan of using Lightning Reflexes whenever they overcharge their big plasma gun for mortals on 1s and 2s. Torment/Haywire grenades are another way to get a few mortals in.

I’ve been sticking to pure DE for now but a friend of mine has been using lots of haywire skyweavers mixed into DE and they do really well. They can WWP in and are pretty durable against knight shooting. Plus if they charge and surround a knight it can’t step over them (and they can go to 3++ themselves so don’t take much damage in return), and if they don’t surround it there’s a strat to shoot when the knight falls back. And he goes Dreaming Shadow to shoot again when models die. At this point he considers knights to be almost auto win. And this is his take all comers tourney list, not just a list tailored for knights.
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Elfric
Hellion
Elfric

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Join date : 2018-03-04

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Sat Jul 21 2018, 13:26

Ive ordered 6 Skyweavers, and you're right. Soaring Spite Quins in cars with fusion pistols sounds good but it's not as effective as you think. I'd rather go void weavers and Skyweavers. I hadn't considered dissie Ravagers and Raiders. I do have a Void Bomber but have been thinking of getting a couple of Razorwings as well. It's good advice to use disintegraters first, then go blasters. If he rotates ion Shields then I could always switch targets or AoV it. I've found obsidian rose with 24 inch blasters is nice
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withershadow
Wych
withershadow

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Sat Jul 21 2018, 23:51

If you have enough dark light and haywire, pure can do it. I do feel like you need to have two squads of haywire scourges in every list now though, if you’re expecting knights.
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Cerve
Wych
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Sun Jul 22 2018, 10:06

Keep yourself cheap. Get a good body, win on objectives. And bring enough antitank to stop almost 1 of them in 1 turn.
But not overrush on antitank if you're not building a list ONLY for them (i.e. in a campaign, for example). If you're looking for tournament advices or just you like to write lists good against every one, then don't rush into antitank army. Knights struggle into capture objectives.
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UlrikTheSlayer
Hellion
UlrikTheSlayer

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Tue Jul 31 2018, 14:34

My list which table every knights army turn 3 or 4 and actually almost any kind of list...

-Blackheart : 3 Ravagers (2x3 DC/1x3 DL)+ Archon Blaster -Writ of Living muse+ Phantasm  & 4 Raiders with DL (3x DL & 1 dissie)
-Obisdian Battaillon : 2x Archon Blaster + Phantasm - 3x10 Kabalites with 2 blasters / SC + 1x5 with Blaster
-2x5 Scourges = 8 Haywire wherever you want (24" is usually enough on deployment turn1 as if knights have init they usually put one in middle).
-One Airwing - 2 RZW (I use dissie + 1 Void Raven as I like the bomb + Dark Scythe but might be better the lance for IK).

I've always killed 1 or 2 knights a turn and I play aggressively with one raider per turn the D3 with Phantasm. Otherwise, play with covers , terrain and movement speed. Agent of Vect is mandatory + Lightning reflexes too. The Solarite can throw a Haywire grenade if you are not too far.

Placement, most players suck at using the good stratagem or really do not position well...And remember..


Last edited by UlrikTheSlayer on Tue Jul 31 2018, 14:55; edited 1 time in total
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WhatAHowl
Slave
WhatAHowl

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Tue Jul 31 2018, 14:47

Iirc Haywire Grenades are only available to models with plasma grenades, which Kabalites don't have.

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UlrikTheSlayer
Hellion
UlrikTheSlayer

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Tue Jul 31 2018, 14:53

I've been cheating then. Smile Damn it! Wyches had no grenades before and now they have :p...

Well then play aggressively, use your solarite to throw one if you have "corones" (balls) (and if you are quite sure to kill the IK) as he can NOT have a haywire blaster.
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Skulnbonz
Wych
Skulnbonz

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Location : Tampa

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Tue Jul 31 2018, 15:47

Just played a knight list at a tournament this weekend for first place.
He had:
castellan
2x armigers with autocannons
2x basalisks
ton of guard troops (for bubble wrap) and mortars everywhere.

He went first and targeted my ravagers. Sadly, for him the real threat was the kabalite gunboats with blasters and after turn 1 both armagers and a basalisk was off the table.

Pure DE can win, but target priority is key against them.

Oh, won the game 39-17 and won the tournament!

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Tue Jul 31 2018, 16:35

Jeez! How many blasters did you have in those gunboats to take out 2 armigers and a basilisk in one turn?

Gratz on the win btw!

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Skulnbonz
Wych
Skulnbonz

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Location : Tampa

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Tue Jul 31 2018, 20:54

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Jeez! How many blasters did you have in those gunboats to take out 2 armigers and a basilisk in one turn?

Gratz on the win btw!
Thanks!

I had 3 raiders, 2 had 2 blasters (and dark lances on the vehicles) and 1 had 1 blaster and 3 arcons with blasters (love hitting on 2's!). Did not get the characters out of the raider until the castellian shot all of those darn missles that target them!

full list:
flayed skull-
2x arcons blasters / pgl
6x 5 warriors (5 had blasters and 1 with shredder due to points shortage)
3 dark lance raiders
2 venoms

black heart-
arcon/ pgl/ blaster
3x ravagers with dissies

prophets-
Urien (wont take him again!)
3x 2 talos / haywire/ flails.

played nurgle, chaos, knights. 32.36.39 points respectively.


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withershadow
Wych
withershadow

Posts : 562
Join date : 2018-04-02

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Tue Jul 31 2018, 23:12

Why won’t you take Urien? Haemonculi don’t kill things if that’s what you were expecting.
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Skulnbonz
Wych
Skulnbonz

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Location : Tampa

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Wed Aug 01 2018, 12:27

@withershadow wrote:
Why won’t you take Urien? Haemonculi don’t kill things if that’s what you were expecting.

Vexator Mask.
I tried urien for the strength buff on the talos (ran him behind 2 units) and since I did not bring grotesques, I thought not having the vexator mask would not be as big a deal.

turns out, that even neutered by low model count talos, the Vexator mask's abilities far outweigh Uriens buffs. Hell, the "no overwatch" alone makes it worth taking, but the "you fight last" rule is just too good to remove from the list.
AND, it would free up points to turn that last shredder back into a blaster.

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lcfr
Sybarite
lcfr

Posts : 456
Join date : 2013-10-20
Location : Toronto

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Imperial Knights   Wed Aug 01 2018, 16:51

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@withershadow wrote:
Why won’t you take Urien? Haemonculi don’t kill things if that’s what you were expecting.

Vexator Mask.



Yyyyyyyup.

I'd take Rakarth in a PoF Battalion but otherwise a Haemonculus w/Vexator Mask is so much stronger. Rakarth is so well costed though, but it's hard to imagine bringing him to the yard rather than a Vexator Mask.
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