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 Tactics vs the Death Guard

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Scyrex Deledras
Hellion


Posts : 40
Join date : 2012-02-12
Location : Canada

PostSubject: Tactics vs the Death Guard   Sat Jul 14 2018, 02:35

So, I'm going to be facing 2k of Death Guard at my LGS this Sunday. I have only faced them once before with my Sisters of Battle, and got murdered by Mortarion, Blight Drones and Poxwalkers. I have yet to face them with my Drukhari. I have no idea what my opponent will be bringing, save that it will be an "experimental" list.

I intend on bringing, based on my collection:

FLAYED SKULL BATTALION:
Archon- blaster, Djinn Blade, Hatred Eternal- 93
Archon- blaster, huskblade- 93
5 Kabalite Warriors- blaster- 47
5 Kabalite Warriors- blaster- 47
5 Kabalite Warriors- blaster- 47
Sslyth- 27
8 Mandrakes- 128
5 Scourges- 4 blasters- 128
Razorwing Jetfighter- splinter cannon, disintegrators- 145
Venom- dual splinter cannons- 75
Venom- dual splinter cannons- 75
Venom- dual splinter cannons- 75
Ravager- 3 disintegrator cannons- 123
Ravager- 3 disintegrator cannons- 123
Razorwing Jetfighter- disintegrator cannons- 145

CURSED BLADE BATTALION:
Succubus- archite glaive, blast pistol, Stimm Addict, Adrenalight, Serpentin- 60
Succubus- shardnet and impaler, Traitor's Embrace, Hypex- 55
7 Wyches- shardnet and impaler, Hekatrix w. power sword, Grave Lotus- 64
7 Wyches- shardnet and impaler, Hekatrix w. power sword, Splintermind- 64
20 Wyches- 2 shardnets and impalers, Hekatrix w. power sword, Adrenalight- 166
6 Reaver Jetbikes- 2 blasters, 2 grav talons, Painbringer- 154
Raider- disintegrator- 80
Raider- disintegrator- 80

PROPHETS OF FLESH PATROL:
Haemonculus- stinger pistol,, electrocorrosive whip, Diabolic Soothsayer- 81
5 Wracks- 45

Total: 1945

Total CP: 13 (-1 for Alliance of Agony, -1 for extra relics, +d3 for Diabolic Soothsayer)

My idea is, chars join the Wych Raiders, Wych blob comes in by deep strike, everything else shoots up big nasty thigns while Wyches either tie up Daemon Princes, etc, or try to kill off hordes. My main questions are:

1. What's generally better vs Death Guard, disintegrators or lances? I;m thinking in particular for dealing with Bloat Drones...god how I hate those things.
2. How should I deal with Poxwalker hordes? Will Wyches work against them? Or is the best tactic vs Poxwalkers simply to avoid them?
3. Should I go with Red Grief on the Wyches instead, given that I included Jetbikes?
And...
3. Be brutally honest: how terrible is this list vs Death Guard? What does it need? Aside from a Black Heart Ravager detachment, as I am in dire need of a third Ravager if I want to be uber competitive.
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Squidmaster
Incubi
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Join date : 2013-12-18
Location : Hampshire, England

PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs the Death Guard   Sat Jul 14 2018, 10:55

I played Death Guard just the other day actually, and it was a REALLY close game.

1. Lances. Use that Dark light to take our his Drones and Crawlers, and then turn them on the big stuff.
2. If its the majority of the army, focus fire with many Venoms. Pile all the shots on them that you can.
3. To be honest, I personally wouldn't use anything pother than full-gun-wielding Kabalites.
4. Against Death Guard, the Wracks will be useless and the Wyches will not be that useful. DG are tough and strong, and getting near them kills you. More Warriors. More Venoms. GUNS.
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withershadow
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Join date : 2018-04-02

PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs the Death Guard   Sat Jul 14 2018, 18:15

The patrol seems utterly useless here. Wracks are not great, and you’re not using the Coven to bring any solid Coven units. You’d be better off with just a Farseer auxiliary or something. Or find the points for another flyer and run a Black Heart flyer wing for Agents of Vect stratagem.

Deep-striking the Wych blob is an AWFUL idea. Wyches don’t really benefit from being 20-strong, because you don’t get any extra weapons after being more than 10-strong. Deep striking you also lock yourself out of Screaming Jets, our best anti-alpha stratagem, and landing 9” away means you still have a 50% chance to fail your charge with a re-roll, and you just get obliterated with rapid fire. Your list would be better off if you just walked that unit, so that should indicate how terrible of a basic plan that is if walking 6+ save T3 models across the board is a better plan.
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Scyrex Deledras
Hellion


Posts : 40
Join date : 2012-02-12
Location : Canada

PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs the Death Guard   Sat Jul 14 2018, 18:22

@withershadow wrote:
The patrol seems utterly useless here. Wracks are not great, and you’re not using the Coven to bring any solid Coven units. You’d be better off with just a Farseer auxiliary or something. Or find the points for another flyer and run a Black Heart flyer wing for Agents of Vect stratagem.

Deep-striking the Wych blob is an AWFUL idea. Wyches don’t really benefit from being 20-strong, because you don’t get any extra weapons after being more than 10-strong. Deep striking you also lock yourself out of Screaming Jets, our best anti-alpha stratagem, and landing 9” away means you still have a 50% chance to fail your charge with a re-roll, and you just get obliterated with rapid fire. Your list would be better off if you just walked that unit, so that should indicate how terrible of a basic plan that is if walking 6+ save T3 models across the board is a better plan.

I mainly took the patrol so that I can get the extra CPs from Diabolic Soothsayer. Beyond that, I don't expect the Wracks to amount to much.

The Wych blob was an experiment, partly because I was curious as to how well a Wych horde would work at clearing away blobs of Poxwalkers, etc, and partly because I just wanted to see how well Cursed Blade could do with a giant Wych unit. I agree that it is a high risk, high reward unit, but that being said, if you think I would be better served by another Raider-borne Wych unit, then I can do that.

Also: are Reavers worth it vs Death Guard? I know that they tend not to do well in protracted fights, so I'm wondering how well they will fare against an enemy that is either hordes of unbreakable gribblies, or really tough monsters/vehicles.
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Scyrex Deledras
Hellion


Posts : 40
Join date : 2012-02-12
Location : Canada

PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs the Death Guard   Today at 04:34

Quote :
So, I'm going to be facing 2k of Death Guard at my LGS this Sunday. I have only faced them once before with my Sisters of Battle, and got murdered by Mortarion, Blight Drones and Poxwalkers. I have yet to face them with my Drukhari. I have no idea what my opponent will be bringing, save that it will be an "experimental" list.

I intend on bringing, roughly:

FLAYED SKULL BATTALION:
Archon- blaster, Djinn Blade, Hatred Eternal- 93
Archon- blaster, huskblade- 93
5 Kabalite Warriors- blaster- 47
5 Kabalite Warriors- blaster- 47
5 Kabalite Warriors- blaster- 47
Sslyth- 27
8 Mandrakes- 128
Razorwing Jetfighter- splinter cannon, disintegrators- 145
Venom- dual splinter cannons- 75
Venom- dual splinter cannons- 75
Venom- dual splinter cannons- 75
Ravager- 3 dark lances- 148
Ravager- 3 dark lances- 148
Razorwing Jetfighter- disintegrator cannons- 145

CURSED BLADE BATTALION:
Succubus- archite glaive, blast pistol, Stimm Addict, Adrenalight, Serpentin- 60
Succubus- shardnet and impaler, Traitor's Embrace, Hypex- 55
5 Wyches- shardnet and impaler, Hekatrix w. power sword, Grave Lotus- 64
5 Wyches- shardnet and impaler, Hekatrix w. power sword, Splintermind- 64
20 Wyches- 2 shardnets and impalers, Hekatrix w. power sword, Adrenalight- 166
6 Reaver Jetbikes- 2 blasters, 2 grav talons, Painbringer- 154
Raider- disintegrator- 80
Raider- disintegrator- 80

PROPHETS OF FLESH PATROL:
Haemonculus- stinger pistol,, electrocorrosive whip, Diabolic Soothsayer- 81
5 Wracks- 45

Total: 1945

Total CP: 13 (-1 for Alliance of Agony, -1 for extra relics, +d3 for Diabolic Soothsayer)

My idea is, chars join the Wych Raiders, Wych blob comes in by deep strike, everything else shoots up big nasty thigns while Wyches either tie up Daemon Princes, etc, or try to kill off hordes. My main questions are:

1. What's generally better vs Death Guard, disintegrators or lances?
2. Should I go with Red Grief on the Wyches instead, given that I included Jetbikes?
And...
3. Be brutally honest: how terrible is this list vs Death Guard? What does it need? Aside from a Black Heart Ravager detachment, as I am in dire need of a third Ravager if I want to be uber competitive.

So here's how it went:

My opponent ran the following (from memory):

DEATH GUARD SPEARHEAD:
Daemon Prince- wings, 2 malefic talons, Suppurating Plate, Miasma of Pestilence, Rotten Constitution
3 Deathshroud Terminators
3 Myphilitic Blight Haulers
Plagueburst Crawler- 2 plaguespitters
Plagueburst Crawler- 2 plaguespitters
Plagueburst Crawler- 2 plaguespitters

NURGLE DAEMONS BATTALION (I think...he had just 1 HQ, though, so I don't think that's right):
Herald of Nurgle- Curse of the Leper
4 Nurgling Swarms
4 Nurgling Swarms
4 Nurgling Swarms
4 Nurgling Swarms

DEATH GUARD SUPERHEAVY AUXILIARY DETACHMENT:
Mortarion- Plague Wind, Pestilential Vitality

We played one of the ITC missions, on a diagonal deployment on a table with sparse cover. I chose...I think it's Monster Hunter and Recon? He chose character-hunting and also Recon. I'll be honest, my memory is hazy, and I was essentially a casual player up against someone prepping for the ITC. I'm not going to write a proper batrep on this, partially because the details are hazy, and partly because, honestly, I'm kinda ashamed of how much of a dunce I played like. I'll just go over the most salient points:

-After some minor losses on turn 1, I pulled a refused flank and managed to pop one of his Plagueburst Crawlers with concentrated fire
-Thereafter, his return fire was mostly ineffectual, but he did manage to charge and kill my Razorwing with his Prince. In response, most of my stuff circled his Prince and rapid fired/zapped him down to one wound, before my lesser Archon charged and finished him off. This was actually a big mistake on my part: in having so much of my stuff circle around the Prince, I pretty much bunched everything up instead of using my natural mobility to spread out. This left me open, in the next turn, for Mortarion to swoop in, hit me with his AOE effect before multi-charging a lot of my units. From there things pretty much went downhill.
-I have no idea what the final score was, but he was ahead. I had killed 1 unit of Nurglings, 1 Plagueburst Crawler, his Herald, his Daemon Prince, and had taken Mortarion down to half wounds. In exchange, I had lost all my characters bar my lesser Archon and primary Succubus, 1 unit of Wyches, and all of my vehicles bar 1 Venom, 1 Raider and 1 Ravager.
-As a sour note, I had a choice of charging my warlord Archon into either a Plagueburst Crawler or the Deathshroud. I was going to be taking a crapton of flamer hits either way, so I charged the Deathshroud...and lost the shadow field to overwatch. I resolved that she was at least going to take a Terminator or two down with her Djinn Blade before she died...but instead, Cataphractii armour and DS saved everything, and then my poor Archon got scythed in return. New model syndrome strikes again, sadly. Here's that fateful moment (only picture I took of the game):



OBSERVATIONS:
-I brought my list expecting to deal with Poxwalker hordes (hence the Wych blob). In retrospect, I shoulder really have brought more Kabalites/firepower.
-I was surprised at how aggressive he was in moving forward with his Plagueburst Crawlers. I was expecting him to go for lascannon equivalents, not plaguespitters. Again, I really should have used my mobility to keep my distance.
-Nurglings are freaking tough! My Wyches just couldn't kill the buggers off when it mattered.
-The Wych horde came down on turn 2....and failed their charge on the Nurglings guarding an objective, as did the Mandrakes. When they did make it into a unit of Nurglings on turn 3, they had taken some losses, and only killed 2 bases and nearly killed a 3rd. Not nearly good enough. I think the whole deepstriking Wych blob experiment has failed.
-My Traitor's Embrace Succubus was terrible. She charged Mortarion, died horribly...and then rolled a 1 for her explosion damage. I used a command point reroll, got a 2...and then Mortarion saved one of the wounds anyway on Disgustingly Resilient. I had spent two whole command points and a character just to do 1 wound to Mortarion.  :bleep:
-As mentioned above, I was an unpracticed, casual player against a guy practicing for ITC. The outcome felt like it was inevitable based ont that factor alone.

MISTAKES:
-I had my Reavers and Raider with Wyches, warlord Archon, Sslyth and sacrificial Succubus too far on the left flank, hoping for a first turn blitz. Instead I lost the roll off, lost all but 2 of the Reavers turn 1, lost the Raider (and the Wyches shortly thereafter), and spent almost the whole game trying to keep my Archon and Succubus out of harm's way. It was pathetic.
-As mentioned above, I was an idiot and didn't take full advantage of my mobility
-I initially forgot about the Flayed Skull ability to reroll 1s with my splinter rifles/cannons. This was pivotal, as I kept having my vehicles hug my Archon's reroll bubble instead.

WHAT WENT WELL, AT LEAST:
-My firepower was reliable and effective throughout the entire game, with my multiple blasters punching holes in his tanks and my massed splinter fire putting serious hurt on his Daemon Prince and Morty
-My number 2 Archon did better than my Djinn Blade-wielding warlord, killing off the Daemon Prince and even managing to tank wounds for a round from Mortarion
-My Mandrakes, even though they failed their charge when they arrived, were excellent at clearing away my opponent's backfield, killing off one unit of Nurglings with baleblasts and stabbing down the Nurgle Herald

RULES LESSONS:
-Up until now, i had always thought that overwatch worked like 7th ed, where you can have a unit charge in, eat up overwatch, and free another unit to charge in without penalty. Instead, as I learned, an enemy unit can overwatch as many times as it likes as long as it's not locked in combat. This became apparent when I charged the last two Reavers into one of his Plagueburst Crawlers, hoping to eat overwatch so some nearby Wyches could lock it in combat and deny its shooting for a bit. Nope, the Reavers died, and the Wyches soon followed suit.

RULES QUESTIONS
-Does the Helm of Spite have to be outside of a vehicle to work, or can it function from inside a transport?
-When rerolling charges, do you have to reroll all dice or can it just be one of them?
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