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Cerve
Wych
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 22 2018, 16:49

So I guess that Tactics still better than Scouts because they have a better loadout, so it is between AssaultSquad and TacticalSquads etc...

No guys, that's the entire point of the game. This game is more than maths and numbers Smile but these are just my 2 cents.
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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 22 2018, 17:38

That's a dumb example, as those units are completely different. You take Scouts to get them out of your deployment zone. You take Tacticals to do... other stuff. Can Tacticals do the same thing as Scouts, which is to get out of the deployment zone before the first turn? No.

You're missing the point, Cerve. The bikes do the exact same thing as the Scourge do, providing Haywire, at a similar point cost. However, they also just happen to have a load of other benefits, including:

-1 to hit
4++
T4
good assault capabilities

And they enjoy all these benefits while doing the same job and having the same cost as the Scourge

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Mikoneo
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 22 2018, 17:40

If it helps to stop the scourge/bike arguments, I don't use and have no intention of using anything beyond pure dark eldar
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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 22 2018, 18:31

This is TDC, we'll argue with or without you haha.

But back to original topic, your Outrider loadout is how I'd do it if I was going to do it, but I'm not sure if I'd take more than 2 Scourge squads anyway. Haywire is a must IMO post-Knights release.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 22 2018, 19:40

@Chippen wrote:
But back to original topic, your Outrider loadout is how I'd do it if I was going to do it, but I'm not sure if I'd take more than 2 Scourge squads anyway. Haywire is a must IMO post-Knights release.

I'd probably take 2 at 1500pts, and maybe add another one at 1750-2000pts.


Out of interest, what HQ would you take in an otherwise Scourge-only Outrider?

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Mikoneo
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 22 2018, 19:46

From my understanding of how obsessions and mercenaries interact, I was planning on taking a haemonculus as prophets of flash for the warlord trait, as all non mercenaries share the same keyword (even if there is only one of them)
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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 22 2018, 19:47

[quote="Soulless Samurai"]
@Chippen wrote:



Out of interest, what HQ would you take in an otherwise Scourge-only Outrider?

That's purely up to your list and what you need.
Haemy with Soothsayer for CP
Succubus with Blood Glaive I think it is? Some Relic gives her a really good output, I forget which one.
Archon w/ Blaster if you got more points.

All have their merits. For my lists and style? Probably the Haemy because my Archons are tied up with my Kabal Battalion and BH spearhead.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 22 2018, 19:57

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Out of interest, what HQ would you take in an otherwise Scourge-only Outrider?

I'd suggest an Archon if you need to unlock Agents of Vect, a Succubus if you want to keep the detachment as cheap as possible, and Yvraine if you really want your Scourges to murder things. It's a bit dumb but even after the Codex she still synergises better with them than any of the native HQs.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 22 2018, 20:14

@Chippen wrote:
while doing the same job

(After that I will end the OT)

THIS is the wrong point. Is not because they have both haywire guns they will do the same job. A DA knight and a Scion w/plasmagun have the same (similar) gun with the same pourpose.
But they fulfill their works in two completely different ways.

Skyweavers will never achive the tank-hunters playstyle well as Scourges do. Scourges can DS/move free on the board, focus themselves into tankhunter work. With Skyweaver you can't. You must consider that you can't sacrifice them only for shooting, you must consider where to move them keeping in mind that you want charge too (again: -1 to hit, no advance, or no +1 attack?) or it will be a waste (with their stats?) etc. Precisesly as you can't move BlasterReavers as you will move/DS scourges, in the same way you can't move and play your Skyweavers only for the antitank pourpose.

They don't do the same job, not in the same way.

(Ok end of the OT)



Anyway, I will consider to bring Scourges AND Skyweavers in this case.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 22 2018, 21:23

I don't have a Harlequinn force (yet), but I do adore the Starweaver. Scourges and Starweavers are about equally expensive and bring a similar quantity of Haywire shots.

The Starweaver clearly has an edge because of its great durability and mobility. It's essentially a Venom++ with haywire cannons. What's more: In theory, a Starweaver + Troupes inside is all you'll ever need. Starweaver counter heavy vehicles, while Troupes counter most infantry. But I am just so appalled bythe price tag...

The cheapest way of getting 3 Starweaver is an Outrider for ~400pts, or 2 Starweavers with Troupes inside and for ~430pts. But for 450pts I'm getting a BH Spearhead with three 5++, 6+++ Ravagers, Agents of Vect and Labyrinthine Cunning. And taking both detachments puts me at almost 1000pts and only 2 CP...

To get more CP, I could take a Quinn Batallion for 700+ points. But for 420 points I can get a Poisoned Tongue Batallion (Raiders transports) or ~430 for a Flayed Skull BT (Venom transports).

All of a sudden, paying ~200pts for 2 units of Haywire Scourges sounds a lot more appealing because they are just so easy to fit into usual lists. Not to mention that Haywire is a specialist weapon and you might not even find enough suitable targets in the enemy list...

Also, I love Flayed Skull Venoms. With a 19" move that never degrades, along with re-rolling hits of 1 and ignoring cover they are almost a steal for their cost. And the massed splinter fire, re-rolling hits of 1 aren't shabby either. Another advantage of Venoms is that you can deploy them further away from the enemy, while Starweaver want to move closer to the enemy when your Troupes charge out of the vehicle.


I know, this became more of a listbuilding post, but after all you need to have some sort of detachment to bring them. This really is not a negligible point in a real scenario and the way I see it, you need to make your Dark Eldar a supplementary force if you still want to run an efficient list.

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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 22 2018, 22:13

@Cerve wrote:
@Chippen wrote:
while doing the same job

(After that I will end the OT)

THIS is the wrong point. Is not because they have both haywire guns they will do the same job. A DA knight and a Scion w/plasmagun have the same (similar) gun with the same pourpose.
But they fulfill their works in two completely different ways.

Skyweavers will never achive the tank-hunters playstyle well as Scourges do. Scourges can DS/move free on the board, focus themselves into tankhunter work. With Skyweaver you can't. You must consider that you can't sacrifice them only for shooting, you must consider where to move them keeping in mind that you want charge too (again: -1 to hit, no advance, or no +1 attack?) or it will be a waste (with their stats?) etc. Precisesly as you can't move BlasterReavers as you will move/DS scourges, in the same way you can't move and play your Skyweavers only for the antitank pourpose.

They don't do the same job, not in the same way.

(Ok end of the OT)



Anyway, I will consider to bring Scourges AND Skyweavers in this case.

That's an absolutely ridiculous argument. Just because a unit can do more than one thing doesn't mean it has to, nor does it mean it can't do one thing equally as well as a unit that specializes in that thing. In this case, we have demonstrated that Haywire Skyweavers BRING THE SAME AMOUNT OF HAYWIRE AS SCOURGE. They still fly, can still deep strike. You can still sacrifice them if that's your thing, it'll just take more actual investment from your opponent in order to kill them.

You get every single upside with the Skyweavers that you get with the Scourge, and even more benefits.

And with a 24" range, why is it not plausible to be in position to shoot something and also charge something else? It's so common that I'd be willing to get you can plan on it in 80% of situations, on the low end. And if not? Do the same thing you'd do with Scourge, use Fly to get to an advantageous position where you limit return fire.

What are you not understanding about this?

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 22 2018, 22:39

@Chippen wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@Chippen wrote:
while doing the same job

(After that I will end the OT)

THIS is the wrong point. Is not because they have both haywire guns they will do the same job. A DA knight and a Scion w/plasmagun have the same (similar) gun with the same pourpose.
But they fulfill their works in two completely different ways.

Skyweavers will never achive the tank-hunters playstyle well as Scourges do. Scourges can DS/move free on the board, focus themselves into tankhunter work. With Skyweaver you can't. You must consider that you can't sacrifice them only for shooting, you must consider where to move them keeping in mind that you want charge too (again: -1 to hit, no advance, or no +1 attack?) or it will be a waste (with their stats?) etc. Precisesly as you can't move BlasterReavers as you will move/DS scourges, in the same way you can't move and play your Skyweavers only for the antitank pourpose.

They don't do the same job, not in the same way.

(Ok end of the OT)



Anyway, I will consider to bring Scourges AND Skyweavers in this case.

That's an absolutely ridiculous argument. Just because a unit can do more than one thing doesn't mean it has to, nor does it mean it can't do one thing equally as well as a unit that specializes in that thing. In this case, we have demonstrated that Haywire Skyweavers BRING THE SAME AMOUNT OF HAYWIRE AS SCOURGE. They still fly, can still deep strike. You can still sacrifice them if that's your thing, it'll just take more actual investment from your opponent in order to kill them.

You get every single upside with the Skyweavers that you get with the Scourge, and even more benefits.

And with a 24" range, why is it not plausible to be in position to shoot something and also charge something else? It's so common that I'd be willing to get you can plan on it in 80% of situations, on the low end. And if not? Do the same thing you'd do with Scourge, use Fly to get to an advantageous position where you limit return fire.

What are you not understanding about this?


One example? +2cover save with them.


Seriously it's ok Smile these are opinions, you will not understand my point anyway. It's fine, let's comeback together IT
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 24 2018, 08:58

So bringing the discussion back to Scourges, a pair of units with haywire blasters seems a great choice for anyone. What to use that third slot on is up in the air. More haywire can work if your meta is full of Leman Russ Tanks and Knight Titans (and the latest FAQ made all Knight lists quite viable), but otherwise that’s almost 300 points in middling anti-infantry fire. Darklight is a good option as well, especially if your list doesn’t have much darklight. Heatlances are sadly crap, and shredders are really short ranged to the unit is guaranteed to be a one hit wonder.


Last edited by withershadow on Wed Jun 27 2018, 05:38; edited 1 time in total
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Mikoneo
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 24 2018, 09:02

Disintegrators aren't an option for scourges as far as I'm aware
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 24 2018, 09:31

Am I the only one here that runs Scourges with Splinter Cannons?

DS at 17.9999” and drop 27 Splinter shots into an INFANTRY target of my choice.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 24 2018, 13:12

@Ikol wrote:
Am I the only one here that runs Scourges with Splinter Cannons?

DS at 17.9999” and drop 27 Splinter shots into an INFANTRY target of my choice.

But why not use Shardcarbines for the same number of shots and have about twice as many wounds.


That said, I wouldn't use either because if there's one thing my lists don't need it's more poison shots. Razz

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2018, 02:54

Because 10 points less per unit is good, 12 shots at 36” is still enough to be helpful, and because my force of Harlequins with FP, Skyweavers with HB, Flayed Skull gunboats with Dissie and Blasters supported by DL RWJF and a Dissie Ravager doesn’t need MOAR anti-tank.

That’s the main reason.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27 2018, 05:37

It’s not 10 points, though. Paying 10 points for a splinter cannon to go from 3 shots to 6 shots, or 12 points for the same increase and an extra wound. Maybe once you’re at full 10 with 4 cannons, for 42 shots. But poison is super meh, especially with no reroll buffs available.

@Mikoneo wrote:
Disintegrators aren't an option for scourges as far as I'm aware
i don’t know why I keep calling haywire that. Wishful thinking? Or how they seem to disintegrate my Knights and Russes. Razz

But yeah, haywire is excellent since they are our best option against the newly popular Knights and do very well against T8 in general for their cost. I think two units is a must in anyone’s collection.
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27 2018, 06:57

I'm a bit surprised there isn't more backing for shredders on scourge. From my experience the shots they generate do more damage to most vehicles than haywire can manage. They are also much more capable vs infantry. Short range yes - but with a Turn 2 deepstrike followed by Fire and Fade into cover, you can keep them at range. Most games are well on the way to being decided by turn 3, so you can choose if you need to fire and fade for another turn or let the scourge take their chances after their second round of fire.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27 2018, 07:42

@yellabelly wrote:
I'm a bit surprised there isn't more backing for shredders on scourge. From my experience the shots they generate do more damage to most vehicles than haywire can manage. They are also much more capable vs infantry. Short range yes - but with a Turn 2 deepstrike followed by Fire and Fade into cover, you can keep them at range. Most games are well on the way to being decided by turn 3, so you can choose if you need to fire and fade for another turn or let the scourge take their chances after their second round of fire.
You can’t fire and fade after deep striking, so you end up losing the unit immediately precisely due to its damage output, unless you hold back to like turn 3 when the enemy is thinned out and you’re going after some isolated objective camping unit.
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27 2018, 07:50

Oh - didn't realise that! That's obviously been made clear somewhere that I've missed. It's not written into the stratagem is it?

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27 2018, 09:24

@yellabelly wrote:
I'm a bit surprised there isn't more backing for shredders on scourge. From my experience the shots they generate do more damage to most vehicles than haywire can manage. They are also much more capable vs infantry. Short range yes - but with a Turn 2 deepstrike followed by Fire and Fade into cover, you can keep them at range. Most games are well on the way to being decided by turn 3, so you can choose if you need to fire and fade for another turn or let the scourge take their chances after their second round of fire.

Last time I tried Shredders, they struggled to shred termagants, let alone heavier stuff.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27 2018, 10:08

@yellabelly wrote:
Oh - didn't realise that! That's obviously been made clear somewhere that I've missed. It's not written into the stratagem is it?

It's a FaQ
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27 2018, 10:58

Thanks Cerve!

Soulless Samurai, if you're struggling to kill termagants with a D6 shot S6 rerollable wounds AP - 1 weapon then you might want to check someone hasn't added 1's to a few extra faces of your dice.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Scourge Gear    Scourge Gear  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 27 2018, 13:40

Don’t mind him, he’s one of the local curmudgeons. Every forum has one, we have a handful. Very Happy

Each shredder shot has about a 64% chance to hit and kill a termagant, and you get 4D6 plus 3 carbine shots. Mean average has you shredding 10 in a volley. I still prefer them on Trueborn over Scourges though, having that Venom makes all the difference.
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