HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 List Building with our new codex!

Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
AuthorMessage
hexxenwyrd
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 92
Join date : 2018-04-24

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sun Jun 17 2018, 00:15

@ph@ntom
The kabal part is obsidian rose
2 archon
20 man warrior.
2x5 man squads in venoms.
2 sslyth in venom with 2nd archon.

Support varies from there
Back to top Go down
Soulless Samurai
Wych
avatar

Posts : 598
Join date : 2018-04-02

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sun Jun 17 2018, 00:50

@hexxenwyrd wrote:

Complaining that archons don't fit a monostrategy assigned to kabals I don't get. Having archons support that strategy would be a worse design, as it would push kabal even further into being monostrategy.

That doesn't make sense. Kabal are pushed into monostrategy regardless of the Archon.

He doesn't bring anywhere near enough to make alternative strategies viable, so by making him incompatable with that monostrategy, all you're doing is making him suck at buffing his own army.

Also, why are we the only race who are penalised for using the strategy our army is designed around?

@hexxenwyrd wrote:

Why would you want that over having support for things other than "put infantry in transports and never leave"?

In case you haven't noticed, 'put infantry in transports and never leave' is done despite the Archon's aura. i.e. their aura is changing nothing in terms of Kabal tactics. Because those transports are far more useful than the Archon's piddling reroll buff.

Here's the thing, I can get behind wanting to see Kabalites used in different ways. But those ways need to actually exist in a meaningful sense - otherwise you're just screwing over the Archon for the sake of it.

If you want to see Kabalites used outside of transports, then there needs to be an actual reason to disembark them beyond the Archon's aura. And currently there just isn't. For example, if Kabalites were good in combat, then that might provide a reason to get them out (especially with Black Heart or Poison Tongue). But they're not. Even buffed, they're still abysmal in combat. Not only that, but every good melee unit is in a non-Kabal faction, so the Archon can't even apply his aura to Incubi or Mandrakes.

Another possibility would be to have Kabalites with Jump Packs (or something along those lines). Now, granted, this would also require the Archon to have access to wings or such as well. But this would allow him to buff accompanying troops without both of them giving up all their mobility for the privilege. They'd still be giving up their protection, obviously, but at least you'd only be trading one aspect rather than two.

Further possibilities would include allowing one HQ to travel for free in a Webway Portal when it's used to transport a unit of the same <Kabal>, <Cult> or <Coven>. That way, deep striking a 20-man Kabalite squad + Archon isn't three times as costly as just deep striking the 20-man squad.

TL:DR if the Archon is meant to only support troops outside of transports, then Kabal needs to be built such that this is a meaningful and effective option. As it stands, you're asking people to give up an effective strategy for a demonstrably worse one, just so they can pretend their HQs weren't a complete waste of points.

_________________
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Never trust the French.
Back to top Go down
hexxenwyrd
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 92
Join date : 2018-04-24

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sun Jun 17 2018, 01:10

So rather than asking for those things, you ask for more support for the mono strategy.
In that case let's get rid of 90% of the crafftworld Dex because they don't fit altiaoc dark reapers spam. Every non suit non drone Tau. Etc.

You are going down the "most competitive tourney list is the only option" hole, and then asking for that hole to be deeper. I cannot support that philosophy.
Back to top Go down
TheBaconPope
Wych
avatar

Posts : 659
Join date : 2017-03-10

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sun Jun 17 2018, 03:26

Quote :
So rather than asking for those things, you ask for more support for the mono strategy

One of these things requires a singular rule change of similar magnitude to the FAQ ones.

The other requires new units/sculpts and multiple rule changes far outside the magnitude we've seen in an FAQ, Chapter Approved, or even a Codex. Which seems like the more reasonable request?

And I find the argument that wanting an Archon to synergize with embarked units is WAAC minmaxing to be..silly, to say the least.

Tournament units change every couple months as exploits are discovered and patched. Kabal, hell, Dark Eldar have always been about working around transports since their inception! It's not unreasonable at all to expect that your leaders work with one of the most iconic parts of your army.

_________________
"Death solves all problems. No man, no problem."
Back to top Go down
withershadow
Wych
avatar

Posts : 561
Join date : 2018-04-02

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sun Jun 17 2018, 04:27

Auras Work the same for everyone, seems like crying over spilled milk that has already curdled.
Back to top Go down
hexxenwyrd
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 92
Join date : 2018-04-24

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sun Jun 17 2018, 11:21

Except having effects reach into transports violates a design principle of the game.
If they made raiders capacity 11 and made truborn cost one less and have a venom blade as basic war gear you help the problem without new sculpts or going further down the mono build hole.
Now you can have an archon in with a 10 man squad, so the transport tax part is gone, and the trueborn are good enough in melee that popping out of the transport to get the aura buff and follow up with a charge does work.
Back to top Go down
Soulless Samurai
Wych
avatar

Posts : 598
Join date : 2018-04-02

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sun Jun 17 2018, 11:24

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
So rather than asking for those things, you ask for more support for the mono strategy.

Last I checked, this was a forum - not a wishing well. Wink

There are a lot of things I'd like DE to have, but the vast majority of them - including much of the stuff I mentioned in my post - would require new models or significant changes.

Hence, I am suggesting a chance of the Archon's aura because it doesn't require a model and doesn't require extensive changes.

Put simply, I'm trying to constrain my requests to stuff that we might actually get before 9th edition.


@withershadow wrote:
Auras Work the same for everyone, seems like crying over spilled milk that has already curdled.

Hence why I said that it was a mistake to give the Archon an aura ability in the first place. And actually took the time to write up an alternative suggestion.

But I guess reading is hard. Rolling Eyes

_________________
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Never trust the French.
Back to top Go down
TeenageAngst
Incubi
avatar

Posts : 1778
Join date : 2016-08-29

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Mon Jun 18 2018, 04:30

@merse24 wrote:
You're not the only one who feels this way ph4ntron.  @Teenageangst has some strong feelings about this.

If I talk about this too much anymore Count threatens me.

The issue with Dark Eldar getting chopped up is I think people put blinders on. Kabal is the go-to for most people because it's virtually impossible to screw up dudes in boats and 3 Ravagers. You point and shoot like Tau. The downside is there is not much room to improve for the truly good strategic players which is why I think as the meta rolls on you'll see Kabal be like a gear check list in tournaments and rarely hitting the high tables of GTs, losing out to Eldar and Knights and such. Solo Covens and solo Wyches work similarly, they're all good if you know how to run them but fall apart against lists that just have their number to the point it's virtually impossible to win with them against certain list types so long as your opponent understands their army.

Good Dark Eldar lists need all 3 components and anyone who tells you different doesn't casually play in an area where you're likely to face someone on a winning ITC team at your average 40k night. I've experimented with running one or two parts of the faction, and while it can win, it doesn't slam people face first into the dirt the way Eldar or Knight lists do, or even like my brigade did. It also doesn't help that I got my face rolled by Tyranids running Kabal/Coven. For this reason I'm reevaluating my options with the brigade detachment, foregoing those obsessions once again. I'll probably have a Black Heart patrol just for Agents, and that'll mean bringing an extra Haemonculus or something, but I can't really complain about bringing a Haemonculus.

_________________
Really terrible videos about tiny plastic space elfs intended to help you get gud scrub:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcZP8WGIhte5TmCWQXsZO4A

Flawless pieces of literary perfection:
https://www.fanfiction.net/u/2805979/
Back to top Go down
merse24
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 213
Join date : 2014-06-14
Location : Texas

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Mon Jun 18 2018, 17:45

@TeenageAngst wrote:
@merse24 wrote:
You're not the only one who feels this way ph4ntron.  @Teenageangst has some strong feelings about this.

If I talk about this too much anymore Count threatens me.


HAHAHA


Honestly, At first I was over the moon about this codex! But now that I've got a few competitive games under my belt, there are certainly some areas where we struggle and the way our armies are split into different factions compounds the issue. In order to build a GOOD TAC list, we have to include a tool to deal with specific units to counter the meta. And right now those tools are spread across 3 different factions. So we are having to pay a tax for the HQs in order to include those tools. The points cost of the HQ tax then limits us on the number of tools we can bring, which further limits us.

A good example of this is a Custodes bike army. We certainly have the tools to deal with them but they are spread out across the 3 factions:

Reavers or hellions for Mortal wounds
Blasters and other darklight
Grots or Talos

All three of these are solid options for fighting Custodes, but we can't take them in the same detachment without penalty.

I'm honestly finding that in order to make the most of our toolset, we need to bring in some Eldar allies. Armies with Knights and Custodes are going to cause issues for us without bringing Eldar and once the Ork codex comes out, that's going to cause a whole other issue that TAC lists need to counter.
Back to top Go down
Burnage
Wych
avatar

Posts : 742
Join date : 2017-09-12

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Mon Jun 18 2018, 17:55

@merse24 wrote:
I'm honestly finding that in order to make the most of our toolset, we need to bring in some Eldar allies.

And then you run into the issue that with the standard three detachment limit you're forced to leave at least one of our factions at home.

The shine's definitely coming off the codex for me, the further we get out from its release.
Back to top Go down
merse24
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 213
Join date : 2014-06-14
Location : Texas

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Mon Jun 18 2018, 17:58

@Burnage wrote:
@merse24 wrote:
I'm honestly finding that in order to make the most of our toolset, we need to bring in some Eldar allies.

And then you run into the issue that with the standard three detachment limit you're forced to leave at least one of our factions at home.

The shine's definitely coming off the codex for me, the further we get out from its release.

I agree with that!   I'm honestly very happy where we are competitively though.  I've never wanted DE to be the best codex out there, it doesn't suit us well, plus it brings in all of the people wanting to just jump on the bandwagon to our faction!

I still think we're top 5, but probably not the top, especially after SW and Orks get released.

Edit: Since posting this, I checked the results from this weekends Dallas Open GT. 71 players and DE took 1st, 3rd and 9th and Ynarri with a Ravager detachment took 8th.

1st Place had a Harlequins detachment
3rd place had an Eldar detachment
9th place was pure DE
Back to top Go down
Soulless Samurai
Wych
avatar

Posts : 598
Join date : 2018-04-02

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Mon Jun 18 2018, 22:52

@merse24 wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
@merse24 wrote:
I'm honestly finding that in order to make the most of our toolset, we need to bring in some Eldar allies.

And then you run into the issue that with the standard three detachment limit you're forced to leave at least one of our factions at home.

The shine's definitely coming off the codex for me, the further we get out from its release.

I agree with that!   I'm honestly very happy where we are competitively though.  I've never wanted DE to be the best codex out there, it doesn't suit us well, plus it brings in all of the people wanting to just jump on the bandwagon to our faction!

I still think we're top 5, but probably not the top, especially after SW and Orks get released.

Edit: Since posting this, I checked the results from this weekends Dallas Open GT. 71 players and DE took 1st, 3rd and 9th and Ynarri with a Ravager detachment took 8th.

1st Place had a Harlequins detachment
3rd place had an Eldar detachment
9th place was pure DE

Any idea what the actual lists were?

_________________
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Never trust the French.
Back to top Go down
Tom090
Slave
avatar

Posts : 22
Join date : 2018-03-19

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Mon Jun 18 2018, 23:22

I find it relatively easy to build lists. I am however pretty pissed off that the rule of 3 means I can't take 2 Kabal Battalions. I'm OK with paying 70ish points for an Archon but Drazhar is useless to me
Back to top Go down
merse24
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 213
Join date : 2014-06-14
Location : Texas

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Mon Jun 18 2018, 23:41

1st Place:

BH Batt:
Archon x 2 Huskblade and PGL on both. 1 had WotLM and Lab Cunning
Warriors: 5 units of 5, looks like no upgrades? (35 pts per unit)
Lhamaean x 1
Venom x 9 - Single SC on all of them
Ravager x3: 3 DC on each

Red Grief Batt
Succubus x2 - Archite Glaive on each
Wyches: 3 units of 5 (1 shardent and impaler in each)

Veiled Path Outrider
Shadowseer - Twilight pathways, Mirror of minds, smite
Skyweavers x 3: 3x zeypherglaive, 3x haywire
Skyweavers x 2: 2x zeypherglaive, 2x haywire
Skyweavers x 2: 2x zeypherglaive, 2x haywire

I'll post the other two later tonight
Back to top Go down
Soulless Samurai
Wych
avatar

Posts : 598
Join date : 2018-04-02

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Mon Jun 18 2018, 23:56

@Tom090 wrote:
I find it relatively easy to build lists. I am however pretty pissed off that the rule of 3 means I can't take 2 Kabal Battalions. I'm OK with paying 70ish points for an Archon but Drazhar is useless to me

To be fair, I think this is less an issue with the rule of 3 and more an issue with our codex having just 1 HQ per subfaction.

Still kinda shocked that the Court of the Archon wasn't made an exception to the rule of 3, though.  Neutral


@merse24 wrote:
1st Place:

BH Batt:
Archon x 2 Huskblade and PGL on both.  1 had WotLM and Lab Cunning
Warriors: 5 units of 5, looks like no upgrades? (35 pts per unit)
Lhamaean x 1
Venom x 9 - Single SC on all of them
Ravager x3: 3 DC on each

Red Grief Batt
Succubus x2 - Archite Glaive on each
Wyches: 3 units of 5 (1 shardent and impaler in each)

Veiled Path Outrider
Shadowseer - Twilight pathways, Mirror of minds, smite
Skyweavers x 3:  3x zeypherglaive, 3x haywire
Skyweavers x 2: 2x zeypherglaive, 2x haywire  
Skyweavers x 2: 2x zeypherglaive, 2x haywire

What an odd list. I'll admit to being more than a little curious as to what the strategy is.

Cheers for writing that up.

_________________
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Never trust the French.
Back to top Go down
Aschen
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 261
Join date : 2013-01-06

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Tue Jun 19 2018, 06:01

Im kinda confused about the list lol... it says 35pts per unit...but a unit of 5 costs 30? and there aren't any 5pt upgrades? maybe he was cheating himself out of 25pts?
Back to top Go down
Soulless Samurai
Wych
avatar

Posts : 598
Join date : 2018-04-02

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Tue Jun 19 2018, 09:26

@Aschen wrote:
Im kinda confused about the list lol... it says 35pts per unit...but a unit of 5 costs 30? and there aren't any 5pt upgrades?  maybe he was cheating himself out of 25pts?

Yeah, I couldn't work that out either. Question

Unless he thought they were still 7pts per model?

_________________
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Never trust the French.
Back to top Go down
merse24
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 213
Join date : 2014-06-14
Location : Texas

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Tue Jun 19 2018, 14:13

It may have been a typo on his list. He had 5 units listed, the first unit showed to be 30 points and the other 4 showed to be 35.

I'll get the other 2 lists typed up shortly
Back to top Go down
merse24
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 213
Join date : 2014-06-14
Location : Texas

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Tue Jun 19 2018, 14:19

3rd Place:

BH Batt
Archon - Blaster, PGL
Archon - Blaster, WotLM, Lab Cunning
Warriors - 3 units of 5 (no upgrades)
Ravager x 3 - 3 DC each
Razorwing x 2 - 2 DC (135 pts each)
Venom x 3 - 1 SC each

Alaitoc Batt
Farseer - Doom, Fortune
Spiritseer - Conceal
Warlock Skyrunner - Protect
Rangers - 3 units of 5
Shining Spears - 8 + Exarch with Star lance (9 total)
Crimson Huner Exarch
Back to top Go down
merse24
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 213
Join date : 2014-06-14
Location : Texas

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Tue Jun 19 2018, 14:24

9th Place:

PoF Batt
Haemy - Electro Whip
Urien
Wracks - 3 units of 5
Grots - 10

Black Heart Spearhead
Archon - Huskblade, Lab Cunning, WotLM
Ravagers x 3 - 1 had 3 DC and the other 2 had 3 DLs
Tantalus
Raider - DL

Cult of Strife Batt
Lelith
Succubus - Agoniser, Archite Glaive
Wyches - 9, Hekatrix (Agoniser, PGL, Blast Pistol). 1 Shardnet and Implaer
Wyches - 10, Hekatrix (Agoniser, PGL, Blast Pistol). 3 Razorflails
Wyches - 5, 1 shardnet and Impaler
Back to top Go down
TeenageAngst
Incubi
avatar

Posts : 1778
Join date : 2016-08-29

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Tue Jun 19 2018, 15:58

It sure is easy to win with Dark Eldar when you bring lots of stuff that isn't Dark Eldar.

_________________
Really terrible videos about tiny plastic space elfs intended to help you get gud scrub:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcZP8WGIhte5TmCWQXsZO4A

Flawless pieces of literary perfection:
https://www.fanfiction.net/u/2805979/
Back to top Go down
merse24
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 213
Join date : 2014-06-14
Location : Texas

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Tue Jun 19 2018, 19:48

That's the name of the game now. Soup.

Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari.

Back to top Go down
Burnage
Wych
avatar

Posts : 742
Join date : 2017-09-12

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Tue Jun 19 2018, 19:50

@merse24 wrote:
That's the name of the game now.  Soup.

Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari.  


Even a pure Dark Eldar list is probably going to be soup. There's no real way to avoid it and, especially if you're playing competitively, I don't see a reason to leave options off the table.
Back to top Go down
lcfr
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 456
Join date : 2013-10-20
Location : Toronto

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Tue Jun 19 2018, 20:39

Cool, I think it's great that the Aeldari family can enjoy more reunions.

Expanding my collection to include more Craftworld and Harlequin minis has been a good time, I'm starting to kitbash across the 40k and fantasy elf lines and that's primarily thanks to Keyword Aeldari !
Back to top Go down
Kantalla
Wych
avatar

Posts : 859
Join date : 2015-12-21

PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Tue Jun 19 2018, 23:34

It's interesting reading the comments on this thread. I get the impression that some of us are a bit too invested in either the Codex is good or Codex is bad. I think they got a lot of things right with the Codex, but there are some fluffy and efficient rules they could have applied to make it better still.

I do feel the two objections raised are fairly reasonable:
1) HQs and auras are a bit clunky for us (Kabal aura and Succubus mobility especially)
2) Fitting aspects of all three subfactions into detachments is a bit messy

Wishlisting a bit for tweaks to the Codex, I would like to see:

Archon's aura works from our transports and affects Kabal models within 6" of the transport or embarked on those transports. That would mean some obsessions need a rework, and a points hike for the Archon. Or a Stratagem to allow that to happen.

Reaver Succubus option. Possibly Dracons and Haemonculus Apprentices for extra HQ options.

Allow a Drukhari Detachment to include all models in the list, but only those of the appropriate type gain the Obsession buff. For example, you could add Grotesques to a Black Heart Battalion, without losing the Obsession for the Kabal units.

_________________
From a midnight sky, there is a searing flash, a boom, a brief moment of destruction, and then it is gone.
Kabal of Lightning Strikes - Project Log
Drukhari damage output analysis
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   

Back to top Go down
 
List Building with our new codex!
Back to top 
Page 2 of 3Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

GENERAL DRUKHARI DISCUSSION

 :: Drukhari Discussion
-
Jump to: