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Aschen
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PostSubject: List Building with our new codex!   Thu Jun 14 2018, 06:36

I play mainly Kabal, cuz thats what I like about Dark Eldar. Actually, the last part is a lie. I love every faction in the Dark Eldar lineup, but with their screw up on Alliance of Agony CP, its really not very feasable to bring all three in a list, unless you're specializing two, and battallioning one.... Anyways, thats besides the point....

What I really wanted to talk about is how EASY it is to make a list with the codex. Even in last editions, I'd make a list, with everything I wanted, and then would cut out pieces that weren't optimal, and trim points to get down to a playable level....

Now I tend to throw things together, and its around the same points I want for the game. Albeit I've grown a bit better at list building.... But it just seems our points are so efficient, and rounded to hit those 1000pt, or 1500pt, or 2000pt marks without wasted points.

I know writing this is going to make GW quickly FAQ the book and skew the points (I really dread when they bump up the points of warriors and Ravagers, means Im going to have to find like 60+ points somewhere) But how does everyone else feel?

Besides falling short on some areas (transport capacity, and 'mounts' for our HQs) I think GW did a spot on job on our codex, at least mathematically, lol
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Thu Jun 14 2018, 11:32

I'm inclined to agree. I certainly don't feel like I'm scrounging for good units, like I did in 7th. So I have more options and I feel I can take a lot more risks and try out new ideas, without fearing that I'll cripple my list.

Thus far, I've mostly been playing Kabal, simply because (like you) that's my favourite part of DE. It's also the part that I have the most models for.

Part of my list-building so far has revolved around a sort of 'core' army (based on a Kabal Battalion), which I can then add other stuff to - either extra units in the same Battalion (more warriors, Scourges, Mandrakes etc.) or else a detachment of Cult or Coven.

A very minor thing that I like is that we always have some cheap 'filler' upgrades to round off our list. Maybe I'm OCD or something, but I hate having a list come to 1497pts or something like that.


Anyway, the main things I've really struggled with (which you've already alluded to) are our HQs. The mobility aspect is a real pain. Partially because putting them in transports is very awkward and partially because I'm not always running transports. e.g. I'll sometimes use a Cult Outrider with 3 units of Reavers, but then I'm left with a Succubus who can't take a Jetbike to join them and so just has to try and tag along elsewhere and forget her aura entirely. Archons are also a pain. I need 2 for a Battalion, but I'm still limited to just 4 Court models. They also just don't do a lot, support-wise. Mostly, I just end up looking at them sitting right next to a Scourge or Mandrake squad, and sighing as they're completely unable to buff said squad.

Also, if I have 3+ HQs in a list, it practically turns into a brawl for who gets the artefacts and warlord traits. Which is amusing to visualise but not really helpful when it comes to list-building. Razz

Still, in spite of our irritating HQs, I can't deny that this codex makes me genuinely excited about playing DE and trying out new lists. I still need to try out some Coven units, as well as the different Kabals.

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ph4ntron
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Fri Jun 15 2018, 06:19

Perhaps I'm alone in this, but I find list building a lot harder now. You're forced to take so many extra HQs etc, if you want to use one specific unit. For example, Im forced to take wyches, even if i only want to run reavers.
Plus it feels a lot more clunky to build any other list other than the basic 'flayed skull venom/blaster spam, BH spearhead, and grotesues'. Theres no synergy between any of the subfactions (you can argue this is fluffy, but its just annoying when list building)
The biggest thing that annoys me though is that we are now penalized for taking multiple HQs and troops. Before the codex dropped, we could easily make a brigade, but now if i want to use different subfaction units, i have to pay for the over costed HQs--and still have less CP than a brigade..
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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Fri Jun 15 2018, 15:29

You're not the only one who feels this way ph4ntron. @Teenageangst has some strong feelings about this.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Fri Jun 15 2018, 16:02

@ph4ntron wrote:
Perhaps I'm alone in this, but I find list building a lot harder now. You're forced to take so many extra HQs etc, if you want to use one specific unit. For example, Im forced to take wyches, even if i only want to run reavers.

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point, but this statement isn't true at all. You can easily take an Outrider detachment and run 3 Reaver units without any Wyches to speak of (although you do still need the Succubus, annoyingly).

@ph4ntron wrote:

Plus it feels a lot more clunky to build any other list other than the basic 'flayed skull venom/blaster spam, BH spearhead, and grotesues'. Theres no synergy between any of the subfactions (you can argue this is fluffy, but its just annoying when list building)

The lack of synergy between subfactions is definitely irritating. Especially given our lack of HQ choices.

I mean, if I want an HQ to support a SM army, I can have a Captain (reroll 1s to hit), a Lieutenant (reroll 1s to wound), a Librarian (psychic powers), a Chaplain (reroll misses in melee and a Ld bonus) or a Techmarine (vehicle repair). And that's before we get into mobility options or special characters.

If I want an HQ to support a Kabal detachment, my options are an Archon (reroll 1s to hit... when neither unit is in a vehicle... and for about 9 units... and 4 of them have an ability ) or another Archon (also reroll 1s to hit).

Since we're not allowed to mix HQs to any meaningful effect, I think we could really do with having a choice of buffs with them. It would also be nice if, at the very least, Archons could buff mercenary units. They are supposed to be the overall army leaders, after all.

Regarding Blaster/Venom spam, I don't think that's any more an issue now than it was in, say, 7th. We just don't have many weapons to choose from, and Blasters give an otherwise anti-infantry squad some nice anti-vehicle punch. And whilst Flayed Skull might be the easiest one to do this with, I think it's far from being the only viable option for it.

@ph4ntron wrote:

The biggest thing that annoys me though is that we are now penalized for taking multiple HQs and troops. Before the codex dropped, we could easily make a brigade, but now if i want to use different subfaction units, i have to pay for the over costed HQs--and still have less CP than a brigade..

It really does seem like 90% of the issues with our codex come down to HQs in some way or other. Bit of a shame, really. If they'd put the same effort into the base HQs as they did for the artefacts and warlord traits, I think this really could have been a perfect codex.

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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Fri Jun 15 2018, 19:28

Yeah our HQs cause me some head scratching and teeth gnashing but I'm over it, I just accept it as a tax that holds us back from really aggressively min-maxing one subfaction, whatever the back end design philosophy behind it may be.

I don't like investing too many points in characters but the Battalion bonus is a bit too good to pass up, so I tend to go Battalion + Air Wing + Spearhead/Vanguard/Outriders, if I had a more robust Wych Cult collection I think I might run double Battalion but so it goes.

So far I'm finding it's basically forcing me to expand my collection to meet the Detachment demands, I still feel like it's Christmas basically so I'm trying to use as many things as possible in a list, even though that's not really feasible.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Fri Jun 15 2018, 20:17

I think we have too few units to choose from overall, given that we've been split into three; it's just most noticeable with HQs because we have to fill those slots.
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Fri Jun 15 2018, 20:45

Complaining about the lack of hq I kinda get. Having 3 options is pretty low for a faction, and the 3faction split makes it worse.
However complaining about the archon' not being a good fit for kabal makes much less sense. Rerolling ones to hit is a common buff, but it's also exactly the buff you'd want for a offense focussed army with 3+ to hit.
That complaint seems based on "I never want to get out of my transports and the buff only works if we get out of transports". The problem with this complaint is, hq buffs ALL work like this. Guard orders don't work into or out of transports, ethereal blessings don't, MWBD doesn't, no aura buff does, psychic power buffs don't.

If you start from that restriction, then yes you are restricted. But you impossed that on yourself.

Outside of his o don't see the number of options being that low compared to other factions. 3 troops, 5 elites, 3/7 fast attack,3 HS, 2 flyiers isn't that small compared to factions that aren't Space Marines.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Fri Jun 15 2018, 20:48

@hexxenwyrd wrote:

However complaining about the archon' not being a good fit for kabal makes much less sense. Rerolling ones to hit is a common buff, but it's also exactly the buff you'd want for a offense focussed army with 3+ to hit.

Sure. But why does it have to be an aura? And why does it have to affect so few units?

@hexxenwyrd wrote:

That complaint seems based on "I never want to get out of my transports and the buff only works if we get out of transports". The problem with this complaint is, hq buffs ALL work like this.

Except that other races can't shoot out of their transports.

Not to mention that most other races have actual mobility options for their HQs beyond awkwardly shoving them into transports.

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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Fri Jun 15 2018, 20:58

Why is it an aura?
Because basically everything gets auras. Guard orders are unique, and have been there unique thing for a long time. Necrons gets MWBD, but that weakens an army that wants to blob hard.
And none of there options, even psykic powers go into or out of thransports.
Yes you can shoot out of them, so can orks and harlies. Still nothing in or out of transports.
You refusing to get out is choosing the upside of keeping that protection, over the advantage of getting aura buffs. This is a choice you made, not a restriction impossed from the codex.
>Other factions have speed options for their hqs.
This I'll give you. Especially for succubi, as the speed options are in their subfaction.

No one is getting those buffs if they never get out of their transport of course. Because if you sit in a transport you don't get buffs.
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ph4ntron
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Fri Jun 15 2018, 21:59

@hexxenwyrd wrote:

You refusing to get out is choosing the upside of keeping that protection, over the advantage of getting aura buffs. This is a choice you made, not a restriction imposed from the codex.
>Other factions have speed options for their hqs.

Yea but its not really a choice is it? SM don't "need" transports to have an effective army, we on the other hand HAVE to take either venoms/raiders if we want to get any meaningful use out of our blasters/shredders etc.
I suppose you could argue that we don't need any transports and we can just use jetbikes, ravagers, and covens, but that means intentionally giving up almost an entire subfaction worth of units.
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Fri Jun 15 2018, 22:58

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
Why is it an aura?
Because basically everything gets auras.

Since when was laziness an excuse for bad design?  Neutral

DE plays in a different way to most other races in the game. To ignore this when designing their HQs is nothing short of moronic.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:

And none of there options, even psykic powers go into or out of thransports.

But that's the thing - our auras don't even work on the units inside the transports.

As in, if I have an Archon with a Kabalite squad inside the same transport, neither of them can benefit from his aura.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:

Yes you can shoot out of them, so can orks and harlies. Still nothing in or out of transports.

And which aura are they losing out on when inside their transports?

The Harlequin aura that buffs melee units? Yeah, I'm sure units inside transports will be making good use of that.

The Ork aura that lets infantry advance and charge? Again, can't imagine why this doesn't work on units inside a transport.

The Ork aura that gives them a 5++? Oh, wait, that actually works just fine in transports - protecting the transport itself, rather than nearby units.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:

You refusing to get out is choosing the upside of keeping that protection, over the advantage of getting aura buffs.

So the leader of our army is designed to run in a way that completely counters his own army? Wow. What wonderful design.

I guess that's why Necron HQs aren't allowed to buff squads unless they're minimum-size. Or why Ork Warbosses only allow units to advance and charge if they forfeit their movement.

Oh, wait, no. Those abilities don't work like that because it would be a bloody stupid idea.

But when it comes to an army that's meant to fight by shooting out of transports - which, incidentally, is literally the only benefit of having open-topped transports in 8th - it's fine for their main HQ to be completely useless at buffing them in that role.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
No one is getting those buffs if they never get out of their transport of course. Because if you sit in a transport you don't get buffs.

But why not? Even if auras don't work into or out of transports, is it really too much to ask that an Archon be allowed to buff the units that are in the same transport he's in, literally standing a few feet away? scratch

I mean, I think there are better ways of doing it anyway, but would it really be too much to ask to add "If the Archon is embarked on a transport, the transport and its passengers reroll 1s to hit." to the Archon's aura ability?

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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Fri Jun 15 2018, 23:02

Yes it is too much.
Things in transports are not on the table in terms of measuring distance to, targeting, etc.
Open topped let's you fire weapons from inside vehicles, but only that.

You got that exception to the standard rules, that's what you got.
Asking to just ignore the entire disadvantage of being in a vehicle because you already ignore one disadvantage is asking too much.
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Fri Jun 15 2018, 23:06

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
Yes it is too much.
Things in transports are not on the table in terms of measuring distance to, targeting, etc.

I know. That's why I suggested the amendment. Because otherwise the Archon's aura doesn't even affect the actual Archon. I guess embarking on a transport causes a special anomaly whereby he ends up 7+" away from himself. Neutral

@hexxenwyrd wrote:

Open topped let's you fire weapons from inside vehicles, but only that.

You got that exception to the standard rules, that's what you got.
Asking to just ignore the entire disadvantage of being in a vehicle because you already ignore one disadvantage is asking too much.

So why is it fine for Orks to get an exception with their aura?

Also, why are you so eager for Archons to remain a complete detriment to any unit they're put with in a transport?

What is so wrong with DE having HQs that aren't among the worst in the game?

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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sat Jun 16 2018, 00:11

Well there is them not being the worst in the game. They gave a 2++ save, a good melee weapon, good shooting weapon option, a good aura that benefits your units. But you can't use it within transports.
You're complaining that you can't have your cake and eat it too. Your treating staying in your transports to shoot is something you have to do, not something you can do. It's not the only possible tactic.
Flayed skull is supposed to be about that tactic, which is why they get the archons buff as part of their subfaction buff. But you can also run a firebase, webway portal guys in, get out of your transports, or have buffs after your transports get killed.

You impossed the restriction, you made the archons not fit with your build. And even then they're not terrible.
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sat Jun 16 2018, 00:37

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
They gave a 2++ save

That can't be rerolled and is lost the first time it's failed, leaving you with 5+ armour.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
a good melee weapon

Their melee weapons are okay, though nothing to write home about.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
good shooting weapon option

Now relegated to the Index, but yes.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
a good aura that benefits your units.

scratch

You mean the one that works on maybe 1/6 of the units in the codex to begin with, and which requires you to specifically not use the strategy Kabalites and their transports are designed to use?

Yeah, no. That's not a good aura. That's a bloody awful aura.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
But you can't use it within transports.

In a subfaction that are designed to fight from within their transports.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:

You're complaining that you can't have your cake and eat it too.

No, I'm complaining that our HQs have anti-synergy with the units they're supposed to synergise with.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
Your treating staying in your transports to shoot is something you have to do, not something you can do. It's not the only possible tactic.

So why even play DE? What is even the point? If you have no intention of using their transports then why even bother?

And, once again, why is it fine for every other army to synergise just fine with their HQs, but ours have to be absolute garbage at supporting our core strategy?

@hexxenwyrd wrote:

Flayed skull is supposed to be about that tactic, which is why they get the archons buff as part of their subfaction buff.

That is utter nonsense. *All* Kabals are about this tactic because that's how Dark Eldar work. That is literally their fluff. It's how Kabal are built.

And this is why Archons are so dire - because you lose far more by getting out of your transports than you gain by getting in range of the Archon's piddling excuse for a buiff.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
But you can also run a firebase

Again, why are you playing Dark Eldar at this point? You might as well pick up Tau or IG instead. That way you're not sacrificing the whole purpose of your army just so you can pretend your HQs are a complete waste of space.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
webway portal guys in

You mean one unit and an HQ? Which costs you 3CP for the privilege. Wow. What an amazing tactic. So long as my entire army consists of that one unit and HQ, I guess I'm good to go.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
get out of your transports

Better yet, maybe our next codex could just put the roofs back on our transports? Apparently wanting to actually use that function is cheating, and the Eldar codex has proven that adding more armour to a transport makes it go faster.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
or have buffs after your transports get killed.

Yey...?

@hexxenwyrd wrote:

You impossed the restriction, you made the archons not fit with your build. And even then they're not terrible.

That is a blatant lie. *I* am not the one imposing the restriction. I am literally asking for an existing restriction to be lifted.
- It makes no sense within the context of the fluff.
- It makes no sense in terms of how Kabal is supposed to be played.
- It hamstrings an HQ who was aready walking on crutches.
- It means that an Archon is literally nothing but a detriment to any Kabalite unit he shares a transport with - as he not only strips them of valuable special and heavy weapons but can't even buff them unless they leave the (relative) safety of their transport.


But don't mind me. Keep deluding yourself into thinking that an HQ who has nothing but anti-synergy with his own army is somehow good design.

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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sat Jun 16 2018, 01:46

>all cabal are about this tactic.
So the fluff about flayed skull focusing on this tactic far more than other kabals means nothing?
The bit mentioning them doing an entire raid without leaving their transports as a rare and special accomplishment is a flat lie?
Got it.
Oh, and as for the 1/6th of the army comment. What kabal unit doesn't get a significant buff from being able to reroll 1s to hit?
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sat Jun 16 2018, 04:25

Quote :
Oh, and as for the 1/6th of the army comment. What kabal unit doesn't get a significant buff from being able to reroll 1s to hit?

I think he was referring the the 5/6th of the army that isn't Kabal.

I've found two uses for the Archon's recoll. The first is on themself when they inevitably disembark and charge as the only melee unit in a shooting list, desperately trying to make back the points I spent on them. The other is a backline warlord endlessly droning to Ravager crews about Vect while intermittently screaming "JUST AS PLANNED" when the enemy commander decides that a tank shell didn't explode sufficiently.

That's it. That's really all the use I've found for them. My transports pop all the time, but when your entire army can manage 19" of movement per turn, why would they ever be within 6" of each other?

Again, you can build your list around the Archon's Aura, but you're giving up board control to do it.

I'm with Soulless on this one, HQ's that can often near 100 Points shouldn't force you to choose between your army's main advantages or accessing their piddling buff.

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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sat Jun 16 2018, 08:45

@hexxenwyrd I'm really interested to know what type of of list you run. I don't mean this in a condescending way, I'm just genuinely curious.
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sat Jun 16 2018, 12:18

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
>all cabal are about this tactic.
So the fluff about flayed skull focusing on this tactic far more than other kabals means nothing?

Currently? No.

Bear in mind that, as it stands, Kabal has Kabalite Warriors... and that's about it as far as infantry go. If you include the Index then they also have Trueborn... which are just more elite Kabalite Warriors and otherwise play the same way.

You can maybe make use of the court, but that's just 4 models per Battalion, and if you want to use the same one then you're limited to 3 in your entire army. So, for example, Poison Tongue can't make better use of its melee bonus by including a lot of Lhamaeans.

Obsidian Rose can perhaps deep strike a unit of 20, but you can only WWP 2 units (and you can't even bring an HQ along as an extra - he has to use one of those 2 slots). So you could try that, but then you're using 3 CPs for it (most people would probably prefer to just transport the warriors and abandon the HQ buff), and you're still going to have to use your other kabalites normally and find a use for the 1-2 HQs.

There just isn't enough diversity of options (or they're too limited in number) or support abilities for our Kabalites to be used in multiple, different ways - regardless of which Kabal you're using.

The only other thing you can really do - which people do use with Black Heart - is take a Spearhead or Air Wing. But then, you're not using Kabalites differently, you're just neglecting them entirely (as well as your HQ, in the case of an Air Wing).


@hexxenwyrd wrote:

The bit mentioning them doing an entire raid without leaving their transports as a rare and special accomplishment is a flat lie?

I'm saying that it does not reflect what happens on the tabletop. In the same way that the fluff mentions all manner of things (e.g. Reaver Champtions who became Archons, yet Archons can never take Jetbikes and can never buff or command Cult/Reaver units in any way).

@hexxenwyrd wrote:

Oh, and as for the 1/6th of the army comment. What kabal unit doesn't get a significant buff from being able to reroll 1s to hit?

I was actually referring to Dark Eldar as a whole (though if you'll give me a moment, I'll address your point specifically as well). We're still one codex, after all.

Units in the DE Codex:
Archon X
Succubus
Haemonculus
Drazhar
Lelith
Urien
Kabalites X
Wyches
Wracks
Grotesques
Sslyth X*
Lhamaeans X*
Ur-Ghuls X*
Medusae X*
Mandrakes
Incubi
Beastmaster
Khymerae
Clawed Fiends
Razorwing Flocks
Scourges
Reavers
Hellions
Ravagers X
Talos
Cronos
Voidraven Bomber X*
Razorwing Jetfighter X*
Venom X
Raider X

The 'X's mark out units that the Archon's aura can actually affect. Currently, we're at 11/30 (so about 1/3).

However, we then get to the ones marked with a '*', and also to your initial question. First off, Razorwings and Voidravens might like to reroll 1s, but they can't hover and the Archon has no way of keeping up with them. So, at best, you're looking at being able to get them within his aura every few turns - and even then we're generously assuming that they couldn't be doing anything more useful than getting next to your HQ (instead of, say, getting next to an opposing HQ to snipe it).

But then we get to the real problem - the Archon's own court. You see, their own ability makes his aura completely pointless, because they already reroll all misses just by being near him. So his aura is worthless on the unit that's purpose-built to accompany him.

Anyway, even if we include the Razorwings and Voidraven (who can occasionally benefit from his aura), we're still down to just 7/30 units that the Archon's aura can buff - and one of those is himself. And this is the guy who's supposed to be the overall leader of the entire raiding force. Neutral

Even if you only look at Kabal, you've still only got 5/11 units that can derive consistent benefit from his aura. And this is before we even get into other aspects like the aforementioned transport problem.

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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sat Jun 16 2018, 14:58

Your point about the court is kind of absurd. The Court is designed to get a better benefit from the aura. Not saying they nailed it with the court, but from a game design perspective, they were costed with an Archon in mind and clearly designed to get a better benefit for being in the aura range.
If it was worded "When within 3" of an archon from the same Kabal, you may instead re-roll all failed rolls to hit when benefiting from the Overlord ability, not just 1s to hit" then I don't think you'd be complaining about redundant abilities. But in terms of actual gameplay, it would be identical.

Also, an Archon with a blaster can move +advance, still shoot, and consistently stay within 6" of a razorwing/voidraven. Just have the flyers serpentine back and forth over him as he runs straight ahead.

And remember, you needn't use his aura every turn, sometimes it's better to leverage speed. Just like CP spending, it's often better to front load these benefits to gain advantage early. Sp use the aura early when you're more tightly packed and cause some damage with early looking range firepower. Then spread out and/or pounce on separate pieces of his fragmented army.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sat Jun 16 2018, 16:39

@sekac wrote:
Your point about the court is kind of absurd. The Court is designed to get a better benefit from the aura. Not saying they nailed it with the court, but from a game design perspective, they were costed with an Archon in mind and clearly designed to get a better benefit for being in the aura range.  

Perhaps, but it still means that the Archon's aura is redundant with his own court.

Bear in mind that the Archon didn't have to have an aura at all. If anything, it would make far more sense if he instead had some sort of targeted buff. For example:

Our Prey Is Near: 'At the beginning of each of your shooting phases, you may choose an enemy unit within 18" of the Archon (or within 18" of a transport he's embarked on). Until the beginning of your next turn, friendly <Kabal> units reroll 1s to hit against the chosen unit.'

- Now the Archon can be in a transport (his only mobility option) and still buff units.
- Now the Archon can buff units inside transports.
- Now the Archon doesn't need to be next to the units he's buffing.
- Now there's a reason to field multiple Archons (since they can apply their bonus to different units).
- Now the Court make a lot more sense (since they get a greater buff by sticking near the Archon, but can still be buffed from afar if they go after his designated target when he isn't around.
In terms of downsides/balance:
- Now the Archon does need to play forward (he can't expect to hang round with Ravagers or such).
- Now the Archon can only buff units that are attacking one specific unit each turn.

I think it would solve an awful lot of issues with the Archon, while still being reasonably balanced.


@sekac wrote:

If it was worded "When within 3" of an archon from the same Kabal, you may instead re-roll all failed rolls to hit when benefiting from the Overlord ability,  not just 1s to hit" then I don't think you'd be complaining about redundant abilities. But in terms of actual gameplay, it would be identical.

The problem with that logic is that the court had the same ability in the Index - when the Archon's aura just improved Ld. So they're clearly not just getting an improved version of his aura, rather the Archon was given an aura that was useless for his own court.

@sekac wrote:

Also, an Archon with a blaster can move +advance, still shoot, and consistently stay within 6" of a razorwing/voidraven. Just have the flyers serpentine back and forth over him as he runs straight ahead.

You're assuming here that the Archon will be completely unconstrained by terrain, that the Razorwings will have nothing better to do than meander around a footslogging commander, and that there will be no enemy units around to intercept the Archon. Not impossible, but hardly something you can rely on.

@sekac wrote:

And remember, you needn't use his aura every turn, sometimes it's better to leverage speed. Just like CP spending, it's often better to front load these benefits to gain advantage early. Sp use the aura early when you're more tightly packed and cause some damage with early looking range firepower. Then spread out and/or pounce on separate pieces of his fragmented army.


You're right, you don't have to use his aura every turn. And probably won't. But that's the whole point - his aura has so little synergy with his own army that you have to choose between using his buff or playing the army how it's supposed to work. Neutral

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Britishgrotesque
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sat Jun 16 2018, 21:36

I really don't think our hqs are the worst. Their costs are reasonable for what they do.
Yeah we don't have some of the epic hqs with weapons and statlines that scare knights, but I don't think we need that. Hqs aren't a tax if they can do what they are made to do.

I personally think auras and costs are fine. The real disappointment in this codex is transport capacity or lack of movement buffs for hqs. Wings, jetbikes. Giving venoms and raiders an extra slot for a hq alone will buff our firepower considerably.

The real tax is the extra transport we take, or the missing special/heavy weapons we are forced to go without.
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sun Jun 17 2018, 00:00

Lack of speedy versions on hqs I get the complaint. Raiders not being capacity 11 I really get.

Complaining that archons don't fit a monostrategy assigned to kabals I don't get. Having archons support that strategy would be a worse design, as it would push kabal even further into being monostrategy.
Why would you want that over having support for things other than "put infantry in transports and never leave"?
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: List Building with our new codex!   Sun Jun 17 2018, 00:02

@Burnage wrote:
I think we have too few units to choose from overall, given that we've been split into three; it's just most noticeable with HQs because we have to fill those slots.

Truth.

Building a list now is a pain if you want to use our entire dex and have a bunch of CPs which you need in 8th.

All the HQ taxes fight for artifacts and can struggle to keep up and can't efficiently use their aura buffs.
It just feels so damn clunky.
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