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 How Are People Running Hellions

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Tom090
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PostSubject: How Are People Running Hellions    Wed Jun 13 2018, 22:31


So, I went a bit mental on Ebay (I'm sure we've all done it) and now I am the proud owner of 30 Hellions! Basically, I'm just curious what people are going for obsession and drug wise? Any cool synergies that have been working out well for you? I've made up a list of a bunch of Cult with some Kabal fire support. Hopefully, it gives you an idea of what I have in my collection. It's basically these models and 20 Scourge.

Battalion (Red Grief) 5CP
HQ Succubus 50
HQ Succubus 50
Troops Wychs x8 64
Troops Wychs x5 40
Troops Wychs x 5 40
Fast Attack Hellions x 15 195
Fast Attack Hellions x 15 195
Fast Attack Reavers x 12 228
Transport Raider 80
Transport Raider 80
Battalion (Obsidian Rose) 5CP
HQ Archon w Blaster 89
HQ Archon w Blaster 89
Troops Kabalites 2 Blasters 94
Troops Kabalites 2 Blasters 94
Troops Kabalites 2 Blasters 94
Troops Kabalites 2 Shredders 76
Transport Raider 80
Transport Raider 80
Transport Raider 80
Transport Raider 80
Heavy Support Ravager 125
2003
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Wed Jun 13 2018, 23:04

Cursed blade,

100 barefoot wyches,
50 hellions.

And watch your opponent lose his mind trying to figure what's going on.

Add a blackheart spearhead if you have the point, or just a patrol, for the Agent of Vect stratagem.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Thu Jun 14 2018, 10:09

My experiences with hellions give me 3 options

Grief (usually small units otherwise morale will kill them anyway)
Either m or a drugs hunting weak characters or things like flyers.
Cursed blade
Either a big unit with A drugs (hunting multiwound units)
A small unit with A or S drugs (hunting weak vehicles or multiwound models like bikers nobs)

Small units also make it easy to grab some objectives when the reavers have died/ are occupied elsewhere.
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Tom090
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Thu Jun 14 2018, 10:57

It's interesting how you are both leaning towards Cursed Blade. The moral thing is really nice but I really want Red grief for just about everything else. Are turn 1 charges Viable with Hellions? I've been getting a fair amount off with the red grief Reavers.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Thu Jun 14 2018, 12:35

Those turn 1 charges with hellions are rarely working for me. And I prefer to protect them the first turn instead.

That said first turn charges are for grief for sure doable (14+3d6) for things that start on the front row.

That being said, they rarely have any choice in who to charge in the first turn, which means I often find my opponent is either out of range (since he deployed further back) or you will charge chaff (who have a high chance of killing a few guys in overwatch/melee).
And then the opponent can kill your hellions at his leasure since they are far ahead and probably the best target for their AI guns. With enough vehicles also doing a charge, you might be able to protect them a bit better.
Reavers are much better since they can reach much further inside the enemy line, thus picking targets. Reavers are also a lot thougher than hellions (5 points giving them +1 w +1 t and +1 save) and as grief reavers kill more than hellions against most targets front row targets (2 damage rarely matters here and the ap does).

I actually think strife is really good for hellions as well, but I rarely have a strife detachment.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Thu Jun 14 2018, 12:35

Those turn 1 charges with hellions are rarely working for me. And I prefer to protect them the first turn instead.

That said first turn charges are for grief for sure doable (14+3d6) for things that start on the front row.

That being said, they rarely have any choice in who to charge in the first turn, which means I often find my opponent is either out of range (since he deployed further back) or you will charge chaff (who have a high chance of killing a few guys in overwatch/melee).
And then the opponent can kill your hellions at his leasure since they are far ahead and probably the best target for their AI guns. With enough vehicles also doing a charge, you might be able to protect them a bit better.
Reavers are much better since they can reach much further inside the enemy line, thus picking targets. Reavers are also a lot thougher than hellions (5 points giving them +1 w +1 t and +1 save) and as grief reavers kill more than hellions against most targets front row targets (2 damage rarely matters here and the ap does).

I actually think strife is really good for hellions as well, but I rarely have a strife detachment.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Thu Jun 14 2018, 12:45

@Tom090 wrote:
It's interesting how you are both leaning towards Cursed Blade. The moral thing is really nice but I really want Red grief for just about everything else. Are turn 1 charges Viable with Hellions? I've been getting a fair amount off with the red grief Reavers.

The further we get away from the Codex's release the more this feels like a fundamental issue with how the Wych Cult is designed currently. You've got three Obsessions to work with, and three key units to consider including (Wyches, Reavers, Hellions), except some of those units don't get any benefit from some of those Obsessions while others get a huge boost from them and you probably don't want to be running more than one Wych Cult detachment.

So what gives?
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Thu Jun 14 2018, 15:22

I'm proud of you for buying so many Hellions, show those naysayers.

I also vote Cursed Blade with massive Wych blobs.


Last edited by lcfr on Thu Aug 09 2018, 19:37; edited 1 time in total
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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Fri Jun 15 2018, 04:57

I prefer not to run them at all.
Doesn`t worth a trouble

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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Fri Jun 15 2018, 16:05

Hellions are fun! And you are doing it correctly with a minimum unit of 15. I haven't done it yet, but advancing a full unit of 20 over an infantry unit sounds like so much fun! MW on a 5+, followed by 40 poison shots, and then a charge. Not much can survive that.
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Tom090
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Fri Jun 15 2018, 21:07

@Sarkesian wrote:
Hellions are fun! And you are doing it correctly with a minimum unit of 15. I haven't done it yet, but advancing a full unit of 20 over an infantry unit sounds like so much fun! MW on a 5+, followed by 40 poison shots, and then a charge. Not much can survive that.

Yeah, they are actually really nasty if you can get them anywhere near combat! I'm not super confident after the ringing endorsement above!
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Sat Jun 16 2018, 06:27

@Burnage wrote:
@Tom090 wrote:
It's interesting how you are both leaning towards Cursed Blade. The moral thing is really nice but I really want Red grief for just about everything else. Are turn 1 charges Viable with Hellions? I've been getting a fair amount off with the red grief Reavers.

The further we get away from the Codex's release the more this feels like a fundamental issue with how the Wych Cult is designed currently. You've got three Obsessions to work with, and three key units to consider including (Wyches, Reavers, Hellions), except some of those units don't get any benefit from some of those Obsessions while others get a huge boost from them and you probably don't want to be running more than one Wych Cult detachment.

So what gives?
I think it really depends on what you’re doing. Red Grief is a big boost for Reavers and Hellions, but is also nice for small Wych squads used to tie down enemy units. They can cover a lot of ground to get those backline units.

Conversely, I think large units of Reavers could benefit from Strife’s extra attack. I really wish we had a stratagem to assault after advancing, because otherwise fly over is more or less a Red Grief only stratagem.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Sat Jun 16 2018, 09:38

Honestly, I think Hellions are one of the few Wychcult that works well whith all the three obsessions.
For me, I tried 20 Hellions (well, 18 in fact) from Cursed Blade, paired with 2x20 Wyches. I found them pretty good, but in that list they eat a lot of fire, dying, but helping to bring the rest of the army in melee. So it was a win condition for me.
What I found stunning from them is the amount of fire power in a wychcult army! They add that saturation in the first turn of the game, usefull to clean some chaff units, take low some mobs, which helps a lot in a Melee oriented list. But if I had to play them consistently, maybe I needed more units (2x20? 3x20?) from Cursed Blade.

In other hands, I can't wait to try both RedGrief and Strife Hellions! Small units, 6 of them are fragile Venom, with some reliable melee (don't understimate these guys, they are great in stripping wounds to veichles, or killing some chaff units).
The thing is they are small and cheap. They will die but, so what? In 6-8 Hellions they becomes a nasty threat for any low/medium unit. They fly, they're fast, they shoot well and they are infantry. Good board control, anti-chaff units.

In CursedBlade, they are a reliable unit. You play on them, they becomes a glass cannon and synergize well with the rest of the list. In Strife/RedGrief they becomes fast small harass units, which most of the time will survive just because your opponent will ignore them (your duty is to make a good list with them for that pourpose).

I definitely love these guys, pretty understimate.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Mon Jun 18 2018, 08:49

I must admit I do not find their damage that great. On the other hand in last game I fought quite a few units with multiple wounds and a very good invul save, so then their lack of ap does not matter much. So even if their damage is not great, it still feels like a good investment against those targets.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Mon Jun 18 2018, 13:44

@|Meavar wrote:
I must admit I do not find their damage that great. On the other hand in last game I fought quite a few units with multiple wounds and a very good invul save, so then their lack of ap does not matter much. So even if their damage is not great, it still feels like a good investment against those targets.

For how I see them, their value is not about how much damage this unit can bring, but how much damage and points (in terms of Maelstorm/CA objectives) this unit can bring during the entire game. It's an harras unit for me.
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Sacredsilence
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Thu Aug 09 2018, 16:45

I'm looking at running 3x15 with PGL red grief. My Archons are in a raider with succubus and incubi.thinking give the first unit +2 movement, if I do 't think I can get the charge, run the architects of pain strategem to reroll bad advance roll and ue the red grief raider with advanced aethersails in support, by turn 2, the other 2 sqauds are ready to support and if the 1st squad survive, they can fall back, shoot and charge with the others. Think it might be useful against gunlines like IG or tau. Haven't playtested it yet though
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Thu Aug 09 2018, 17:46

A full unit of 20, portaling in round 2 can be nasty.
I would run them cursed blade, for the +1 str (making them str 5!) and never losing more than 1 to combat res.
Give them a drug of your choice (normally +1 A) send them in, and they should kill what they hit.
then next turn you get to see them all shot off the board.

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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Thu Aug 09 2018, 23:25

Ynnari Hellions seem an interesting idea to a point.

A unit of 20 use Eviscerating Fly-by in the movement phase landing near enough to a unit you destroy in shooting or assault for a second fly-by.

However, if they are Ynnari, that means no Red Grief to charge in after advancing, or Cursed Blade to handle morale, so you give at least one chance for the enemy to shoot them off the board.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Fri Aug 10 2018, 00:04

@Skulnbonz wrote:
A full unit of 20, portaling in round 2 can be nasty.
I would run them cursed blade, for the +1 str (making them str 5!) and never losing more than 1 to combat res.
Give them a drug of your choice (normally +1 A) send them in, and they should kill what they hit.
then next turn you get to see them all shot off the board.

The expense of this is what really sours me on Hellions. Yeah, they'll kill a target but for 280 points you could buy other units that will kill that target (maybe not quite so hard) but also won't die instantly to return fire.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Fri Aug 10 2018, 13:22

If instead of giving them +1S, we give them +1T, with the double-dose stratagem, they would be T5 and should survive a little more. Is it worth it?
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Sacredsilence
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Fri Aug 10 2018, 14:04

But then they die on a roll of a 1, +1 toughness and -1 to hit might work better IMO
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Sacredsilence
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Fri Aug 10 2018, 14:18

Personally I don't see the problem with hellions being glass cannons (points cost is a bit high but pff) that double-dose looks like it'd be better combined with +1 attack when you know they're going to die anyway and need something dead
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Fri Aug 10 2018, 14:30

I tend to run a 10 man unit. Not breaking the bank if they do die, but have enough damage potential to hurt things if my opponent doesn't deal with them. The Lightning Fast Reactions on Hellions is ok, but a 2CP's I find a little expensive. My favourite vs small arms fire is the +1 to cover save, giving them a 3+ and a 6++. It helps them survive a good amount of shooting from standard boltguns, lasguns etc. If they get shot up and die, they've drawn fire away from some of my more key units. If not they can mess an opponent up quite nicely, causing good damage but also disruption to his game plan. I have 2x 3 reavers in my list too, for the same disruption/drawing fire purpose. The reavers also help use up my drug slots so I can max my wyches and hellions with strength or attacks.

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Sacredsilence
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Fri Aug 10 2018, 14:51

Good point, may I ask which cult and drugs you use with them?
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: How Are People Running Hellions    Fri Aug 10 2018, 15:28

I started out running Red Grief, but my last few games I've gone with Cursed Blade and found it to be more effective. I do run a Cult battalion though, with 2x5 and 1x10 wych units. If I was just running an outrider of Hellions and Reavers I'd be rocking Red Grief every time I think.
I always give my Hellions the +1A drug unless I have a specific target in mind for them where S6 is significant. For example, against another DE player for chopping up their vehicles!

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