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 What is your Anti-tank?

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ASadisticRug
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PostSubject: What is your Anti-tank?   Thu Jun 07 2018, 23:41

What are you guys using as Anti-tank?

My list is currently a battalion of coven with talos with a kabal battalion to provide shooting, but at present my only AT is blasters carried in raiders as my Ravagers are now all dissie cannons.

Ive been seeing most DE players are using triple dissie cannons on their Ravagers at the moment which cuts a good chunk of dark light from the list, so what is being used to make up for it? Haywire talos/ scourges?


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KabaliteSon
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Fri Jun 08 2018, 01:14

Disintegrators still have potential to take good chunks of wounds off vehicles. 2 damage is solid and 9 shots rerolling 1s with an Archon is a lot of fire. They don't have to be optimally shooting heavy infantry to be effective. But beyond that, Razorwing Fighters bring Darklight and S7 missiles efficiently, Scourges with Haywire to peel wounds, Archons with blasters giving basically guaranteed hits.

Obsidian Rose Warriors in a raider basically make a 24"+ Ravager worth of firepower plus splinter rifles.

If you're running heavy coven, Talos with Macroscalpels and Haywires are the way to go IMO. Move, advance, shoot, fire and fade and you can probably be charging turn 2. I'm assuming you have grots too that can strip vehicles.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Fri Jun 08 2018, 04:02

Disintegrators are actually better than Dark Lances against T5 or T8 vehicles. Dark Lances are slightly better against T6 and T7.

Basically you can still count on the Disintegrator Ravager as anti-tank, and they are much more versatile against infantry. Haywire Scourges and Talos are the obvious choices if you want to add some extra.

Check the link in my signature if you want to see that quantified - there aren't any targets where Dark Lances are much better now.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Fri Jun 08 2018, 04:22

The mathematical mean is extremely misleading when multi-damage weapons are involved. Given the amount of invulns, damage reduction, damage mitigation, etc abilities, I find the swingy chance for big damage far far far better than consistent plinking. Dissies may more consistent results, but they don’t degrade the vehicle’s stats like a couple of good D6 rolls.

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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Fri Jun 08 2018, 05:12

Not to mention the CP reroll on the DL.

I've honestly found my AT to be lacking a little bit with DCs. I'm still running 3 ravagers, but swapped out 1 DL in each
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Aschen
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Fri Jun 08 2018, 05:22

I tend to go 50/50 ish on Darklight and Dissies. Darklight on infantry, Dissies on vehicles
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Fri Jun 08 2018, 05:37

Prow lances look great on Raiders/Ravagers, so my preferred build is prow Lance and 2 disintegrators.

I’m still going back and forth on whether I want splinter cannons or dark lances on my kabalites.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Fri Jun 08 2018, 12:05

My anti tank generally consists of 3 Dark Lances (on Raiders), ~9 Blasters (on Kabalites and sometimes on Reavers and/or an Archon), and 2 units of 5 Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters.

There's also technically a Ravager with 3 Disintegrators, but it has been consistently abysmal against every vehicle it's fired at. In fact, I think it's currently tied for damage with my other Archon's Soul Seeker pistol - in spite of the latter wounding vehicles on 6s and having only ever fired against a single vehicle.

@withershadow wrote:
The mathematical mean is extremely misleading when multi-damage weapons are involved. Given the amount of invulns, damage reduction, damage mitigation, etc abilities, I find the swingy chance for big damage far far far better than consistent plinking. Dissies may more consistent results, but they don’t degrade the vehicle’s stats like a couple of good D6 rolls.

Yeah, the performance of my Disintegrators certainly doesn't seem to follow the math. They just seem to bounce off everything, and when a single shot finally does get though, the damage is almost meaningless.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Fri Jun 08 2018, 12:10

I generally don't bother firing dissies against vehicle unless there are literally no better targets available.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Fri Jun 08 2018, 12:16

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I generally don't bother firing dissies against vehicle unless there are literally no better targets available.

I also prefer not to fire them at vehicles unless there are no better targets or I'm desperate.

For example, when I had to try and kill 2 Leviathan Dreadnoughs that were slaughtering my army, and I was rapidly running out of anti-vehicle weapons.

I'm told that Disintegrators should have been better than Dark Lances, since it was T8, but frankly they might as well have been 3 potato guns for all the damage they did.


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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Fri Jun 08 2018, 13:15

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
I'm told that Disintegrators should have been better than Dark Lances, since it was T8, but frankly they might as well have been 3 potato guns for all the damage they did.

Actually, that is only true when you face a vehicle with an invul save. The additional AP does tip the damage output into the Dark Lance's favour.

Mind you, the Lance is not better by a huge margin and this also does not factor in the greater cost of Lances.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Fri Jun 08 2018, 15:23

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Actually, that is only true when you face a vehicle with an invul save. The additional AP does tip the damage output into the Dark Lance's favour.
Disintegrators are more points efficient versus a Land Raider than Dark Lances. Especially if you can get Doom on the target.

Amusingly enough I played against a Leviathan recently, and my Archon killed it with his Huskblade by taking the last 5 wounds off. Definitely not a recommended option, but it worked that one time.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Fri Jun 08 2018, 15:56

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
I'm told that Disintegrators should have been better than Dark Lances, since it was T8, but frankly they might as well have been 3 potato guns for all the damage they did.

Actually, that is only true when you face a vehicle with an invul save. The additional AP does tip the damage output into the Dark Lance's favour.

They did have an invulnerable save. Razz

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Fri Jun 08 2018, 16:49

@Kantalla wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Actually, that is only true when you face a vehicle with an invul save. The additional AP does tip the damage output into the Dark Lance's favour.
Disintegrators are more points efficient versus a Land Raider than Dark Lances. Especially if you can get Doom on the target.

Amusingly enough I played against a Leviathan recently, and my Archon killed it with his Huskblade by taking the last 5 wounds off. Definitely not a recommended option, but it worked that one time.
Again, this “efficiency” is largely irrelevant, because the game is not played on a math spreadsheet. There is no real functional difference between plinking something like a Leviathan or Russ for 2 damage with a disintegrator and doing nothing at all with a dark lance. It’s a much bigger deal to get a D6 damage roll past their saves. There is a reason why GW values roll two dice pick highest damage mechanics so highly.
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Fri Jun 08 2018, 18:06

@withershadow wrote:
It’s a much bigger deal to get a D6 damage roll past their saves.

I'd argue that this is why the mathematics is important here - our perception of probability is pretty flawed and it can lead to overvaluing events like this. A Dark Lance feels better than a Disintegrator Cannon because rolling a 5 or 6 for damage is an exciting outcome, even if on average the Disintegrator Cannon will deal more overall damage against many targets.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Sat Jun 09 2018, 01:20

I agree with Burnage that we are generally poor at judging outcomes and get suckered toward big potential outcomes at times.

Another factor is almost every unit in this game requires multiple things to shoot at it to destroy. If a tank takes say 15 Dark Lances or 12 Disintegrators shooting at it to destroy then because there are a lot of events, the spikiness of the Lance damage gets evened out, and the more efficient option will generally win out.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Sat Jun 09 2018, 08:05

We certainly do overvalue potential outcomes, however, using a CP to re-roll a D6 wound roll is a factor that is completely missing from the math. So to, is the recognition that degrading profiles are important.

Understanding the math behind various mechanics is important so you know what to apply and where. When and why are questions that can only be answered on the table.

For example, my typical shooting phase follows 3 steps:
1) Shoot guns that only have range to 1 target
2) Shoot "swingy" guns (D6 shots or D6 wounds)
3) Shoot consistent guns (splinter weapons, dizzies)

That's a template formed of the basic understanding of math. If I fire a lance last, I'm more likely to be hoping to do 4+ wounds and leaving disappointed, or wildly overkill 1-2 wound targets.

However, as the game unfolds, those 3 steps are subject to shift around based on needs at the time. "This unit dies or I lose" trumps "that vehicle is toughness 5" every single time.

Instinct and experience tell you what to shoot, math just tells you how to do it efficiently.

For my part, I like a 50/50 split between lances and dizzies, to a 60/40 favoring lances. Throw in a splash of haywire to taste.
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Mon Jun 11 2018, 15:34

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
I generally don't bother firing dissies against vehicle unless there are literally no better targets available.

I also prefer not to fire them at vehicles unless there are no better targets or I'm desperate.

For example, when I had to try and kill 2 Leviathan Dreadnoughs that were slaughtering my army, and I was rapidly running out of anti-vehicle weapons.

I'm told that Disintegrators should have been better than Dark Lances, since it was T8, but frankly they might as well have been 3 potato guns for all the damage they did.


I always wonder how 2 leviathan with their small range can work against a Dark Eldar Blaster/DC/DL army...Having bad dice luck shouldn't be part of your consideration. Those can only target "one ennemy" with their guns and short range... I do not consider this unit to be a solid choice against our army if you position correctly. Unless of course he makes 10 4++ saves a round...
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: What is your Anti-tank?   Mon Jun 11 2018, 16:08

@UlrikTheSlayer wrote:
I always wonder how 2 leviathan with their small range can work against a Dark Eldar Blaster/DC/DL army...Having bad dice luck shouldn't be part of your consideration. Those can only target "one ennemy" with their guns and short range... I do not consider this unit to be a solid choice against our army if you position correctly. Unless of course he makes 10 4++ saves a round...

Since when was 24" 'short range'? Neutral It's equal to or better than the range of most of our weapons.

And, no, they target as many units as they have guns. Not just 1.


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