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Aschen
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PostSubject: Fun Question about past editions!   Sat Jun 02 2018, 03:06

So here we are, 8 Editions in (seven, if you count six and seventh as one edition) and many rules have come and gone, or changed so much they dont even look like the original! I only started in 5th, so I dont have as much history as many people here, but still....

I figured I'd start a little discussion on what people's most favorite and least favorite rules were in past editions! I'll start

My favorite past rule, though I didnt use it very often, was Death or Glory. It was rather fluffy, and the thought of a lone model staring at a speeding vehicle coming right at him and going "bring it on!" just made things fun!

My least favorite is the Power from Pain rule in 5th. Having to keep track of each kill on each unit was a pain.... and in an edition where our vehicles were the majority of our firepower (for me at least) it meant very few units actually benefited from it. I think the only unit I used that reliably got PFP tokens were my Incubi
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Sat Jun 02 2018, 03:58

The original Urien...

He auto wounded, and had a liquifier gun. Chuck him in a raider, I think the combo was 100 pts, and he simply melted squads.
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Aschen
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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Sat Jun 02 2018, 04:00

@Faitherun wrote:
The original Urien...

He auto wounded, and had a liquifier gun. Chuck him in a raider, I think the combo was 100 pts, and he simply melted squads.

Ah yes... Liquifier guns used to be useful too! When I started, at least...they were strength 4 with a D6 for an AP value. giving you a 1/3 chance of ignoring Terminator armor.
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Sat Jun 02 2018, 07:24

My least favourite rule was the fixed movement values for all units. It actually prevented me playing 40k until 8th edition. It just felt lazy, and stupid to make all troops have the same move value. I was much more interested when 8th dropped and that particular rule was gone!

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Aschen
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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Sat Jun 02 2018, 07:30

@yellabelly wrote:
My least favourite rule was the fixed movement values for all units. It actually prevented me playing 40k until 8th edition. It just felt lazy, and stupid to make all troops have the same move value. I was much more interested when 8th dropped and that particular rule was gone!

I'll agree with you here! But at the same time, I think the movement of vehicles really took away from Dark Eldar's mobility. A Rhino moves 12, and a raider moves 14? seems a bit off...
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Sat Jun 02 2018, 11:17

My favourite rule, hands down, was the original Mandrakes deployment method, from our first ever Codex.
For those not in the know or old enough, in 3rd edition (up to 5th I think?) you would place three models on the board for each mandrake squad. They could only move, and could not be attacked, but acted seperately. By the end of the third turn you reveal which is the unit, and deploy the whole unit around the one thats there.
There was a great and fluffy rule that I loved.


My least favourite was No Escape from 6th/7th (wounds done on passengers of open-topped transports when hit by Flamers/Templates).
The concept of a flamer or two wiping out an entire Kabalite squad, despite the vehicle they were in being protected by its Flickerfield, really, really annoyed me. Especially when things like Heldrakes and Crones swept over and landed hits on multiple transports at once.
Easily the worst rule ever devised.


@yellabelly wrote:
My least favourite rule was the fixed movement values for all units. It actually prevented me playing 40k until 8th edition. It just felt lazy, and stupid to make all troops have the same move value. I was much more interested when 8th dropped and that particular rule was gone!

I also agree this was stupid.
It was ok at first, when a FEW things could mitigate it with Fleet Of Foot (which became Run), but once everyone had that ability it got lessened for the rest of us and made no sense.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Sat Jun 02 2018, 12:13

Favourite rules:

- The old Clone Field. Just a really nice, flavourful rule. With a little tweaking it could have been great.

- The 5th edition PfP (amusingly). I never found tracking kills a pain, and it felt like you were actually being rewarded for kills, rather than PfP escalating in the same way every game, regardless of what's actually happening on thel battlefield.

- The  7th edition Corsair Prince's 'First Prince' rule. Fantastic ability for customising characters, which has sadly never been repeated. Shame they scrapped Corsairs entirely. Would have been nice if they'd found a way to fold them into Eldar/DE.

- The 5th edition Soul Trap. Back when it was fun. And was actually wargear.

- The 7th edition Coven PfP chart. Aside from Fear, it was a nice selection of rules.


Least Favourite:


- Not being able to shoot into combat. So, we've got this universe where human life is all but worthless, yet suddenly every army - including Tyranids - gets all moral when it comes to hitting their own men. Neutral

This is made even worse by the fact that having those men die to stray bullets or artillery strikes would probably be a mercy, compared to some of the melee stuff. 'No, don't shoot at those Death Guard! You might hit our own men, who don't stand a chance and who are busy suffering agony beyond measure as their bodies rot from the inside out.' or 'No, don't shoot at those men! I'm sure those Dark Eldar won't kill them - they'll just capture them and subject them to a thousand years of agony beyond human imagination. Truly this is the kinder option.'

And let's not forget my personal favourite - 'Don't shoot at the Wraithknight! You might hit the men that come up to its ankles!'

- The rules for Advancing and Charging. I don't like how neither of those are affected by a model's move characteristic. More importantly, though, Advancing (or running as it used to be called) simply doesn't make sense. Why does giving up your entire turn only give you +1d6" movement, yet if you stop to shoot and then stop again to fight you can get +2d6" of movement (and then potentially +3" Pile In and +3" Consolidate).

- Charging through cover. I hated how it dropped initiative to 1, when some factions are far more reliant on it than others, and I hated the uneven distribution of grenades (so that it basically ended up being 'screw DE and Tyranids').

- The current character-targeting rules. I can get behind characters being difficult to pick out if they're behind similarly-sized infantry or larger models, that makes sense. However, it's rather weird when you're not allowed to pick out a character because there's a closer unit in the opposite direction. What's more, a character the size of a small building should not be able to hide behind ranks of basic infantry that barely reach his knees. And it's even weirder when the character is almost identical to another model that can be picked out just fine. For example, I can freely target Carnifexes behind gaunts, yet somehow the infamous Old One Eye is apparently completely invisible when standing behind them. I can freely shoot at Annihilation Barges behind Necron Warriors, yet the near-identical Catacomb Command Barge is apparently too similar to the Warriors it towers over to be targeted even accidentally. And don't even get me started on Girlyman.

- The rule that let flamers cook the crews of open-topped transports in 7th.

- The current Open-Topped rule. 'Open-topped vehicles never helped melee units, right?'


@yellabelly wrote:
My least favourite rule was the fixed movement values for all units. It actually prevented me playing 40k until 8th edition. It just felt lazy, and stupid to make all troops have the same move value. I was much more interested when 8th dropped and that particular rule was gone!

I know what you mean, but at the same time the movement value seems to have been implemented rather strangely.

For example, the previously lumbering Leman Russ tanks (which used to be limited to moving 6") now have a 10" move - more than our "fast" infantry or Talos.

Then there's the heavily-armoured Eldar tanks, which nevertheless outpace our lighter and supposedly faster Raiders. Hell, even our Venoms can only just keep pace with them.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Sat Jun 02 2018, 20:14

5th Edition, Baron, just amazing, even to this day its amazing.

And Corsairs from 7th. Im so salty about this still and always will be, they were going to be my main for ever, but nope.....................

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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Sat Jun 02 2018, 20:51

@amishprn86 wrote:

And Corsairs from 7th. Im so salty about this still and always will be, they were going to be my main for ever, but nope.....................

This was probably the most disappointing thing in 8th.

I refuse to believe it would have taken that much effort to convert their rules from 7th to 8th.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Sat Jun 02 2018, 23:53

Well, FW is in a bad place and they are doing as little work as they can right now, they main guy died and no one else was prepared for a replacement. So, who knows what will happen for Xenos at FW.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Sun Jun 03 2018, 06:06

I've been a dark eldar enthusiast since 4th, but didn't start til 5th when they got the new models.
I miss:
-Old power from pain. I loved starting with a "painbucket" of a blob of grotesques and 2 haemonculi with WWPs.
-Old WWPs. I hated the venom spam of 5th, and preferred the board control/pressure of dumping the beast pack and blobs of 15 wyches with haywire grenades.
- Wyches with haywire grenades. They could shred any vehicle with ease, and I hated dark lances back then.
-Baron Sathonyx. Man he was awesome. He turned the beast pack into a stealth, hit-and-run, assault/ defensive grenade toting murder machine. I'd also use him to ferry pain tokens from place to place.

Things I don't miss:
-Old mandrakes. They couldn't even shoot until they had a pain token! And their baleblast didn't cause mortal wounds or soulblaze, just pinning. God they were awful, but I used them anyway because I love mandrakes. (My "counts as" Baron was a mandrake shadowprince)
- Old dark lances. They didn't drop stuff like they do know. You had to absolutely spam them to get them to add up.
- the stupid burn the passengers rule of of last edition. It made sense logically, but from a game balance perspective it's terrible. It hurt Orks and DE severely and pretty much nobody else was affected.

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SERAFF
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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Mon Jun 04 2018, 14:58

- I don't miss the old Pfp rule, but nowadays, when I kill a unit, I still shout: PAIN TOKEN TO THESE GUYS! A small reward for killing someone was a good gamedesign idea.
- the 6th ed had a long but detailed rules set for terrain - how to put  templates on different levels, how to throw grenades on battlements, delapidated buildings etc. Some of the were exceccive but in this edition there is a lot of questions about what to do in multiple level ruins.
- Challenges. I don't miss them. Sometimes they were annoying, but super fluffy.
- The same I can say about tank shock and Death or glory. Interesting rules which add some spice to the game. It would be great if they return as special rules to some particular models.

What I hated
- Every new rules development step from the 5th ed to the 7th ed in terms of General Rules. Each new step made Dark Eldars life harder and harder without any sign of compensation.
Few examples: FNP nerf, Hull points mechanic which turned our boats into super fragile death traps. Then goes flamers and open topped transports, and at the end of 7th they didn't allow us to take Craftworlders in raiders.
- Formations. TAKE AS MANY IMBALLANCED UNITS AS YOU CAN AND THEY WILL BECOME EVEN STONGER! Just srew it.
- God How I hated Imperial Knights! And I still hate them beause of the previous edition. If you play pure Dark Eldar on a tourney with some CC and some shooty units and meet the Knights - you are literally unable to hurt them. You have some lances which have a chance of 33% to do some damage BEFORE THE SAVES! And maybe some haywires. All this stuff dies first turn. After that you just stay and watch your helpless army with poison weapons dies in front of 5 Knights.
- Invisibility.
- Random warlord traits and spells. The Idea itself is insanely stupid.

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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Mon Jun 04 2018, 15:29

The main thing I miss from 5th edition was wyches with 4+ invul save followed by 4+ feel no pain. Now THAT was a tarpit!!

I also miss the templates. It certainly speeds the game up not having them, but in 5th edition I loved dropping those 4 pie plates on turn one from my fliers.

I don't miss the flamers hurting units inside open topped transports. As much as it made perfect logical sense, it greatly hurt our army with little impact on others.

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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Mon Jun 04 2018, 15:35

@SERAFF wrote:

- God How I hated Imperial Knights! And I still hate them beause of the previous edition. If you play pure Dark Eldar on a tourney with some CC and some shooty units and meet the Knights - you are literally unable to hurt them. You have some lances which have a chance of 33% to do some damage BEFORE THE SAVES! And maybe some haywires. All this stuff dies first turn. After that you just stay and watch your helpless army with poison weapons dies in front of 5 Knights.

I think the problem with Knights and other super-heavies is that they're basically just big bricks.

Like, you might think fighting a tank the size of a mountain would lead to some interesting tactics, but no. They just act like normal vehicles with stronger weapons and a bucketload of wounds. Yawn.

I mean, 8th is better in that they can actually be killed without d-weapons and that they actually follow some of the rules, but I still just find them incredibly boring to play against.

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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Mon Jun 04 2018, 15:39

Flamers hurting inside made less sense than any other vehicle not being hurt... there are anti tank weapons to this day that unloads a flamer inside the tanks (It penetrates and cooks the people insides), so why should only open top be effected by this and not all tanks? Sure +1 wound or hit or sometype of small buff vs open top be fine, but i hated those rules and glad they are gone.

I miss Vect most honestly, i didnt want to say it at first, but i want our leader back.

Chaos has a 2nd ed Abandon why cant we?
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and many others

But nope, not DE....

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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Mon Jun 04 2018, 17:12

I miss Flyers not being able to be hit by flamer type weapons
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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Mon Jun 04 2018, 21:40

I miss the vehicle facings and fire arcs rules and sensible terrain rules.

I don't miss Turn Radius Ratios (one for the older Archons amongst us there).

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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Mon Jun 04 2018, 21:49

Agree with the original Urien.
I still remember 10 bezerkers huddling in a clump from a wrecked rhino. Urien layed his flamer template over them... All hit. He AUTO wounded, so all wounds. Then roll a D6 for ap. Rolled a "2'. 10 bezerkers dissapeared in a shower of my opponents tears.

Ah, good times!

I DO NOT miss the 'auto pinned if your vehicle wrecks". It was a death sentence for any DE player.

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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Wed Jun 06 2018, 12:54

I miss WS vs WS in melee, and initiativ. We used to be durable because we hit first and had higher WS than most. Now everything hits on 2s or 3s.
I miss the all HQ from 5th, with plenty variations and effects on the army.
I also miss the 3 months from 5th dropped til the new rule set came, we were quite good for that short time period.
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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Wed Jun 06 2018, 14:31

@Rashkasha wrote:
I miss WS vs WS in melee, and initiativ.

Good shout! I hate the fact that I can hit a Bloodthirster exactly as easily as I can hit a Fire Warrrior, and losing our high initiative means that if we're fighting something big and nasty and can't take it out with one unit of our own it will always get to fight back, usually wiping out the other unit(s) that would be taking it down.

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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Wed Jun 06 2018, 15:08

@Count Adhemar wrote:

Good shout! I hate the fact that I can hit a Bloodthirster exactly as easily as I can hit a Fire Warrrior, and losing our high initiative means that if we're fighting something big and nasty and can't take it out with one unit of our own it will always get to fight back, usually wiping out the other unit(s) that would be taking it down.

The current Initiative system is weird, to say the least. You've got this weird mix of IGOUGO and what amounts to alternating unit activation.

And then you've got 'always strike first' type abilities... except they don't actually work because they're going first anyway or else it's your opponent's turn and he can just pick the charging unit to fight first.

It just seems like they replaced a perfectly-functional system with a very unintuitive and messy one.


Still, at least our warriors can no longer be thwarted by a shrubbery. Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Wed Jun 06 2018, 18:15

I miss 3rd edition when all of are HQs (including Dracons and Drachites) could ride jetbikes or skyboards and you could have 3 Haemonculi per HQ slot at only 25pts a piece. Imagine 6 Haemonculi speeding around the board on jetbikes with their destructors (eh, I mean liquifier guns for those who don't go back that far) melting everything.
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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Wed Jun 06 2018, 19:20

At first i thought you meant DE rules.

If there was one rule i miss out of everything? Real Cover rules

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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Mon Jun 11 2018, 15:30

What I miss:

-The old Urien rule "pay 5pts per grots for +1S". With the +1S of furious charge, you could have F7 grots. That was BRUTAL.

-Dark Artisan. *sob* my poor child. Crying or Very sad

-The old "Remove twin-weapon bonus for ennemy fighting lelith.
-The "Halve the WS of unit fighting lelith"
-The "Lelith gain a bonus attack for each WS over the ennemy"

-The old power from pain
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PostSubject: Re: Fun Question about past editions!   Fri Jul 06 2018, 04:25

I miss Vect.  Sure, I didn't actually field him very often because he was way overpriced for what you got, but I'd like to think that in 8th he would be costed appropriately...  


I don't miss the old mandrakes.  Great looking models, complete waste of time until 8th.    I also don't miss the old power from pain.  The new one is close to perfect; maybe a minor bit of tweaking but it's pretty good.


Finally, oddly enough, the one other thing I do miss is being one of the only DE players in a 16 person tournament.  Yes, I'm thrilled that our codex is finally able to hold its own to the point that games now boil down to player skill much more than match up.  However, when at least 25% of the people that show up are DE then I don't quite feel as special....  

Weird, I know, but there it is.

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