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Kantalla
Wych
Kantalla

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PostSubject: Add one and doubling order   Add one and doubling order I_icon_minitimeSat May 26 2018, 22:47

A random Iyanden relic question for you today:

Wraithblades have a special rule: "Add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit in a turn in which it charges."

So, if the Wraithblades make a charge, their Attacks characteristic is bumped from 2 to 3 during the Charge phase.

Lets say they are near a Psytronome of Iyanden bearer, who activates it at the start of the Fight phase, which has the rule: "for the rest of the Fight phase the Attacks characteristics of all friendly IYANDEN WRAITH CONSTRUCT units that are within 6" of this model are doubled."

Normally, at least in editions past, if you have a doubling and a plus one, the doubling is applied first, but in this case the Attacks characteristic is increased in the Charge phase, and then doubled in the Fight phase.

Does the fact the +1 happens before the doubling mean the +1 is doubled? Or does the fact we have both operations mean the doubling gets applied first when working out the number of attacks?

Also - Ghostswords give them another attack, but that one doesn't modify the attack characteristic, so clearly can't be affected by the Psytronome.

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hexxenwyrd
Hellion
hexxenwyrd

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PostSubject: Re: Add one and doubling order   Add one and doubling order I_icon_minitimeSun May 27 2018, 02:47

Double then add.
Don't know the reference page, but this has come up at various times in various editions. It's always double them add.
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Kantalla
Wych
Kantalla

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PostSubject: Re: Add one and doubling order   Add one and doubling order I_icon_minitimeSun May 27 2018, 04:41

It has always been double then add, but here the adding happens a phase before the doubling. I can't think of a previous case where it happens like that.

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Faitherun
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Faitherun

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PostSubject: Re: Add one and doubling order   Add one and doubling order I_icon_minitimeSun May 27 2018, 04:47

Yup - and as backup up... from the Primer page 13

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer-40k-Battle-Primer-English.pdf

Quote :
You may also encounter abilities and rules that modify a characteristic. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction.
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Squidmaster
Incubi
Squidmaster

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PostSubject: Re: Add one and doubling order   Add one and doubling order I_icon_minitimeSun May 27 2018, 10:38

Page 13 of the Primer given above, or page 175 of the big Rulebook.

In the side bar, listed as "Modifying Charactersitics".
In the middle paragraph:
"...you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic before applying any addition or subtraction."

So in this case, the Wraithblades double their attacks first because of the Psychotrome, THEN add another one when they charge.
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Kantalla
Wych
Kantalla

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PostSubject: Re: Add one and doubling order   Add one and doubling order I_icon_minitimeSun May 27 2018, 11:22

OK - to match the primer the multiplication has to apply to the base profile only.

@Squidmaster wrote:
So in this case, the Wraithblades double their attacks first because of the Psychotrome, THEN add another one when they charge.
Technically though, and the cause of my uncertainty here, is that isn't what you do.

First you make the charge, and gain an attack in the charge phase.

Then if the positioning is good, in the fight phase you use the Psytronome, and double the attacks.

In any previous cases I have come across, the doubling happens either simultaneously or before the addition, e.g. Power Fist plus a temporary strength buff, and hadn't encountered a case where the order was explicitly addition first.

The correct approach would be to recognise you have both an addition and multiplication buff and apply multiplication first when stacking them, regardless of the order the events occur.

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Add one and doubling order   Add one and doubling order I_icon_minitimeSun May 27 2018, 12:58

The mistake you're making is thinking that "turn in which it charges" means "in the charge phase".
That is NOT the case.

ALL multiplying is done before ALL adding. Regardless of what caused the modifier.
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yellabelly
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yellabelly

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PostSubject: Re: Add one and doubling order   Add one and doubling order I_icon_minitimeMon May 28 2018, 08:04

How would this interact with a +1A combat drug selected pre-game? Is that a flat +1 to the profile for the game duration rather than being a modifier which gets activated by certain in game events, and so would be doubled by a modifier?
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Add one and doubling order   Add one and doubling order I_icon_minitimeMon May 28 2018, 11:37

ALL multipliers before ALL additions. Regardless of where it comes from.
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Barrywise
Wych
Barrywise

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PostSubject: Re: Add one and doubling order   Add one and doubling order I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 01 2018, 17:04

So to summarize, because all the attacks happen at once, and not during the charge phase, I think it is safe to say, that you only truly apply the modifiers when the attacks are happening. So you'd have a base statistic of the model on the data card and it will have 2 modifiers.
x2
and
+1

So it'll be

[ (base stat) *2 ] + 1 = 5 attacks with a base of 2.

That is assuming Squidmaster's interpretation is correct.

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Add one and doubling order   Add one and doubling order I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 02 2018, 11:21

I see this as being correct.

You would only ever calculate your chaarcteristic at the time, in the phase, in which you are using it.
Even if you did calculate it in the Charge Phase for some reason, you'd only be recalculating in the Fight Phase to check for additional modifiers. And at that point everything would come down to multiply before addition again.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Add one and doubling order   Add one and doubling order I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 02 2018, 20:18

Its characteristic's, the +1 from charging doesnt change the characteristic, its characteristic x2, then add 1.

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