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 Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?

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KabaliteSon
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PostSubject: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Fri May 25 2018, 18:55

So I kind of went a little crazy killing time at work today and made this article. It's probably redundant as I'm sure someone has done the math already but I wanted to get it on paper for myself. I used a spreadsheet called DiceCalculatorv2, I'll post the link the the bottom. The spreadsheet is based on the potential of your rolls as opposed to the raw percentage. It gives an average variation and accounts for above and below average rolling and puts some weight on that fact.

I copy and pasted because TDC is blocked at work (Mon-keigh scum) so if formatting is off I'll fix it when I get home.

I love Wych Cults, I ran them almost exclusively in 5th and 6th and want to see their return to match play. This is to compare the 3 cults and their pros/cons of their WYCHES and SUCCUBI specifically. I'm not going to really dive into other cult unit’s atm but they obviously should be considered when choosing whych (heh) cult to take in a list. Though I am not going to be doing any hardcore math hammering I want to get a general idea of what excels where and what load out combos are the best. Below is a baseline of each Cults perks laid out in a consolidated way for me to help organize. I'm going to be mainly focusing on Cursed Blade vs Strife because I feel Red Grief has its role as first turn charging and that’s why you're taking a Cult than you already know what you’re going to choose. This is to help myself and hopefully others decide when to bring Strife or Cursed Blade.

TLDR at the end.

Cult Of Strife
Obsession- +1 Attack when charging, charged or Heroic Intervention
Strategem-3 CP Fight twice
Artifact-Random Combat Drug per turn (meh)
Warlord-6+ hit generates 2 extra hits
(Access to Lilith)

Cursed Blade
Obsession-+1 Strength, only 1 model flees when failing morale
Strategem-1 CP 4+ D3 Mortal wounds when charged
Artifact-When slain on 2+ inflict D6 mortal wounds
Warlord-When you roll 6 on save, inflict 1 mortal wound

Red Grief
Obsession-Charge after Advance, reroll charge
Strategem-2 CP Consolidate 6" into transport
Artifact-Blood Glaive- +3 ST -3AP D3 damage
Warlord-3+ Invuln


Lets start with a standard Wych squad. We're assuming competitive play here so the default weapon will be Shardnet and Impaler and Agon or Powersword (Depending on drugs, more on that later). I'm going to try to work off percentages for now but later I'll be using this (Insert Link) Dice Calculator v2. Its not perfect, but it measures on confidence of results vs percentages. I'm going to start by showing a standard squad of 5 with different drug loadouts. In list building, there is a few options for obsession/drugs combos, the most balanced IMO is +1S/+1A using obsession or drugs.

I am only using Strife and Cursed Blade for now, I will add Red Grief or a baseline comparison later. The calculator is basing the armor on an average of 4+ save. It does not take into account Shardnet and Impaler s2 damage or -1 AP. THESE NUMBERS ARE NOT ACCURATE TO WOUNDS IN GAME ONLY TO BE USED IN COMPARISION OF OBSESSION/DRUGS. This is also assuming its turn 1 or 2 and you're hitting on 3s. Numbers may change with Flensing Fury. And it is only calculating for the wyches, not the Hekatrix.

Cult of Strife
5 Wyches w/S&I, Agon/PS (Gravelotus) -Wyches (16 attacks at Strength 4 on the charge)(AP-0)
-Hekatrix/Agon (4 attacks at 4+ wound on the charge)(AP-2)
-Hekatrix/PS (4 attacks at S4 on the charge)(AP-3)5
-Wyches against (T4 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (27.09% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (22.72% of time)
-Wyches against (T3 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-4 Unsaved Wounds (27.26% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (27.56% of time)
-Wyches against (T5 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (25.95% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-1 Unsaved Wounds (15.19% of time)

When rolling better than average this setup grants an average of 3 Wounds against targets between Toughness 3 and Toughness 5.
When rolling worse than average this setup grants an average of 2 Wounds against targets between Toughness 3 and Toughness 5.


5 Wyches w/S&I, Agon/PS (Adrenalight) -Wyches (20 attacks at Strength 3 on the charge)(AP-0)
-Hekatrix/Agon (5 attacks at 4+ wound on the charge)(AP-2)
-Hekatrix/PS (5 attacks at S4 on the charge)(AP-3)
-Wyches againts (T4 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-4 Unsaved Wounds (17.54% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (33.19% of time)
-Wyches against (T3 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-5 Unsaved Wounds (23.13% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-4 Unsaved Wounds (32.87% of time)
-Wyches against (T5 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (17.54% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (33.19% of time)

When rolling better than average this setup grants an average of 4 Wounds against targets between Toughness 3 and Toughness 5.
When rolling worse than average this setup grants an average of 3 Wounds against targets between Toughness 3 and Toughness 5.

5 Wyches w/S&I, Agon/PS (Painbringer) -Wyches (16 attacks at Strength 3 on the charge)(AP-0)
-Hekatrix/Agon (3 attacks at 4+ wound on the charge)(AP-2)
-Hekatrix/PS (3 attacks at S4 on the charge)(AP-3)
-Wyches against (T4 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (25.95% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-1 Unsaved Wounds (15.19% of time)
-Wyches against (T3 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (27.09% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (22.72% of time)
-Wyches against (T5 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (25.95% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (15.19% of time)

When rolling better than average this setup grants an average of 2.66 Wounds against targets between Toughness 3 and Toughness 5.
When rolling worse than average this setup grants an average of 1.66 Wounds against targets between Toughness 3 and Toughness 5.

Cursed Blade
5 Wyches w/S&I, Agon/PS (Adrenalight) -Wyches (16 attacks at Strength 4)(AP-0)
-Hekatrix/Agon (4 attacks at 4+ wound on the charge)(AP-2)
-Hekatrix/PS (4 attacks at S4 on the charge)(AP-3)5
-Wyches against (T4 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (27.09% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (22.72% of time)
-Wyches against (T3 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-4 Unsaved Wounds (27.26% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (27.56% of time)
-Wyches against (T5 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (25.95% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-1 Unsaved Wounds (15.19% of time)
When rolling better than average this setup grants an average of 3 Wounds against targets between Toughness 3 and Toughness 5.
When rolling worse than average this setup grants an average of 2 Wounds against targets between Toughness 3 and Toughness 5.

5 Wyches w/S&I, Agon/PS (Gravelotus)-Wyches (12 attacks at Strength 5)(AP-0)
-Hekatrix/Agon (4 attacks at 4+ wound on the charge)(AP-2)
-Hekatrix/PS (4 attacks at S5 on the charge)(AP-3)5
-Wyches against (T4 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (26.75% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (21.70% of time)
-Wyches against (T3 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (26.75% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (21.70% of time)
-Wyches against (T5 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (32.26% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (38.13% of time)When rolling better than average this setup grants an average of 2.66 Wounds against targets between Toughness 3 and Toughness 5.
When rolling worse than average this setup grants an average of 2 Wounds against targets between Toughness 3 and Toughness 5.


5 Wyches w/S&I, Agon/PS (Painbringer) -Wyches (12 attacks at Strength 4)(AP-0)
-Hekatrix/Agon (3 attacks at 4+ wound on the charge)(AP-2)
-Hekatrix/PS (3 attacks at S4 on the charge)(AP-3)
-Wyches against (T4 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (32.26% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (38.13% of time)
-Wyches against (T3 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (26.75% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (21.70% of time)
-Wyches against (T5 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (14.08% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-1 Unsaved Wounds (24.33% of time)When rolling better than average this setup grants an average of 2.33 Wounds against targets between Toughness 3 and Toughness 5.
When rolling worse than average this setup grants an average of 1.66 Wounds against targets between Toughness 3 and Toughness 5.

Takeways
-Running Cult of Strife with Adrenalight generates the most wounds on average against Toughness 3-5 infantry on the charge. It needs to be taken into account this is only on the charge and numbers will drop from the second round on. Giving an average of 1-2 wounds against T4 4+ Save models.
-Running Strife/Grave Lotus drops to a consistent 2-2 wounds on the second round.
-I think strife is best used when trying to run through squads and move. Using Cruel Deception to fall back and shoot/charge again or strife specific strategem to kill a unit and fight again. Will be strategem reliant, consider bringing a second battalion, possibly Black Heart CP generating.
-Running a mix of Gravelotus and Adrenalight can give some squads kill and move power and others consistency and threaten up to T7.
-The +2 extra strength from Cursed Blade and Gravelotus gives a consistent 2-3 wounds against all toughness models. This will include up to toughness 9.
-Cursed Blades consistent damage and lower use on strategems makes them reliable and gives potential against vehicles.
-Mix in some adrenalight with cursed blade for a more balanced squad.
-When running a squad strength 3, bring an Agonizer. When running strength 5, bring a power sword. When running strength 4, bring what suits the meta and the squads purpose.

That was a lot. I'm not sure why I subjected myself to this. Results of being bored at work with time to kill. Keep in mind again, these are not accurate to what you will see on the table, they are simply a means for comparison. This doesn't take into account gaining the +1 to hit or rerolls from a Succubus. Also it assumes the armor is an average of 4+. But it seems there is power in numbers and weight of attacks. The more dice you roll the better your results, no matter if strength is less.


TLDR: Strife Wyches with Adrenalight gives most potential for first fight phase kills, but falls off hard.
Cursed Blade Wyches with Grave Lotus gives most consistent wounds from T3-T9.
Red Grief Wyches is for first turn charges and speed.

That’s all I have for now. I will probably tackle Succubi and Hekatrix specifics later on.



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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Sun May 27 2018, 02:26

Going to go with the splintermind cast and say cursed blades problem is that other than their trait they provide nothing.
Their strategium is crap, as is their warlord trait and artifact.
Strife's artifact is pretty bad , but their warlord trait is nice and their strategium makes you remember that rwjf can be cult.
Red grief gets possibly the best artifact, a good warlord trait, and a strat that could have real use.

Cursed blades looks really bad until you use the moral benefit on 20 man blobs.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Sun May 27 2018, 09:00

I am not sure I understand.

From your math it seems that s3 wyches deal more damage than str 4 wyches, this probably comes because you only looked at the 2 highest probabilities? Now I did not look at complete probabilities so I might be wrong, but I expect that the probability should follow a mostly gausian curve. It might be that in some cases it is slightly more spread out. Although the average number of wounds for 16s4 attacks against t4 lies significantly higher than for 20s3 (ignoring to hit and saves since they are similar, thus 20 s3 hits is less than 7 wounds and 16s4 leads to 8 wounds)
I think you might have made a small error in the 20s3 attacks, which should average at 4.44 wounds before saves, thus 2.2 after saves, I think here there might have been a small miscalculation, since the 2 highest chances should be 2 (below average rolls) and 3 wounds (above average wounds) not 3 and 4.
S3 (20 attacks)
-Wyches againts (T4 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-4 Unsaved Wounds (17.54% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (33.19% of time)

S4 (16 attacks)
-Wyches against (T4 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (27.09% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (22.72% of time)

I do really like that you looked at probabilities instead of averages, since I do find it impossible to calculate them so on the top of my head and I do not want to spend the time to calculate them all myself.
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KabaliteSon
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Mon May 28 2018, 01:18

You're completely right, I must have messed up the inputs on the spreadsheet I'm using. At S3 with 20 attacks toughness 4 and 5 should have the same result of 3 and 2 unsaved wounds and 20 attacks at S3 against T3 should produce 4 and 3 unsaved wounds.

and @hexxenwyrd I have to agree the cursed blade doesn't bring enough beyond the Obsession bonus. Unless you wanted a patrol of high str wyches, strike and red grief do everything else better.

@|Meavar wrote:
I am not sure I understand.

From your math it seems that s3 wyches deal more damage than str 4 wyches, this probably comes because you only looked at the 2 highest probabilities? Now I did not look at complete probabilities so I might be wrong, but I expect that the probability should follow a mostly gausian curve. It might be that in some cases it is slightly more spread out. Although the average number of wounds for 16s4 attacks against t4 lies significantly higher than for 20s3 (ignoring to hit and saves since they are similar, thus 20 s3 hits is less than 7 wounds and 16s4 leads to 8 wounds)
I think you might have made a small error in the 20s3 attacks, which should average at 4.44 wounds before saves, thus 2.2 after saves, I think here there might have been a small miscalculation, since the 2 highest chances should be 2 (below average rolls) and 3 wounds (above average wounds) not 3 and 4.
S3 (20 attacks)
-Wyches againts (T4 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-4 Unsaved Wounds (17.54% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (33.19% of time)

S4 (16 attacks)
-Wyches against (T4 with 4+) -Better than average rolls-3 Unsaved Wounds (27.09% of time)
-Worse than average rolls-2 Unsaved Wounds (22.72% of time)

I do really like that you looked at probabilities instead of averages, since I do find it impossible to calculate them so on the top of my head and I do not want to spend the time to calculate them all myself.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Mon May 28 2018, 05:46

So many maths....

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Mon May 28 2018, 08:06

@KabaliteSon wrote:

and @hexxenwyrd I have to agree the cursed blade doesn't bring enough beyond the Obsession bonus. Unless you wanted a patrol of high str wyches, strike and red grief do everything else better.


I actually really like cursed blade, since the obsession bonus is that much better. The morale thing helps, and the always str is nearly always just better than the attack on the charge.
I only have 1 warlord trait anyway and while the strife stratagem is really good I doubt I could use it more than once in a game, since it cost so many command points it would cost me the option of other stratagems and it mainly works for large units, which means I would probably also have to spend 2 more command points to stop them from fleeing from morale.

Then again my army is quite cult heavy so I need those wyches to actually deal some damage and I still have a second grief detachment.


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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Mon May 28 2018, 10:31

I feel like grief wins hands down just because they have a bit of everything.

Strife will win if you are going to use their stratagems, so using strife strat and cruel deception to charge again + If you want to use lelith, as she can be an absolute blender with her warlord trait. This means we have to run tonnes of CP for this cult to be effective

Cursed blade seems to be for foot slogging or if your in an MEQ meta, if SM were more competitive we would be prioritizing giving all wyches 4 str.

The hardest thing about it is each cult depends on how you play, as we have many ways now of delivering our cult units
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Mon May 28 2018, 11:50

Something else to consider is that Cult armies are likely to have more than just Wyches in them.

Succubi
- Cursed Blade doesn't get them a whole lot of value. S7 isn't much different from S6 in most cases, and it's completely irrelevant if they're using Agonisers. The artefact is unusual, but not all that impressive. Succubi lack the mobility to make the most of it and it also requires them to sacrifice their actual killing power. The warlord trait is the worst in the Codex and the Stratagem seems to have forgotten that they're melee units - not a gunline.
- Cult of Strife brings their attacks into line with the other HQs, so that's something. A bit weird that it requires them to charge to get the benefit when their unique ability is being able to lock enemy units in melee. Neutral They do have a nice warlord trait - especially when combined with the Triptych Whip (or Razorflails if your artefacts are in use elsewhere). Their own relic is kinda crap, though. The Stratagem is quite expensive, but could be useful on occasion.
- Red Grief extends her threat range, which is always useful. It also has the best Cult artefact by a standard mile - more than making up for the lack of a direct combat bonus. The warlord trait isn't bad either. Probably best to use it on the Succubus with the Blood Glaive, though I guess you could try it on a Succubus with Parasite's Kiss if you want the tankiest Succubus possible. Very interesting stratagem.

Overall: Cursed Blade provides very little. Cult of Stryfe and Red Grief are both good, though I'd lean towards the latter as I think it provides the best toolbox.


Reavers
- Cursed Blade gets them nothing beyond morale, since their weapons are already locked at S4.
- Cult of Stryfe gets them an extra attack, which isn't bad.
- Red Grief gives them +6" of threat range.

Overall: As with the Succubus, it comes down to Cult of Stryfe vs Red Grief. Cult of Stryfe increases their melee output by almost 50%, which certainly sounds nice. However, Bladevanes aren't amazing weapons to begin with and even with Stryfe you're unlikely to have that many of them. Meanwhile, Red Grief synergises very well with their Matchless Swiftness. I'd probably lean towards Red Grief.

(I'm not bothering with Hellions because they benefit from all 3 and I don't think there's enough difference to make them the deciding factor in an army.)

Cursed Blade is out in any army that includes Reavers, and even Succubi get little benefit out of it. Cult of Stryfe seems fine, but a little one-dimensional (and has weird anti-synergy with No Escape). However, it's probably the best of the three in terms of improving the offensive output of all Cult units. Red Grief is the speed one, but also seems to be the toolbox option - giving a variety of different bonuses.

I suppose I just find it interesting because, in the previews, Red Grief was the Cult I initially dismissed, thinking that offence would be more important than speed. And for the same reason, Cursed Blade was the one I was initially drawn to. Now that's flipped entirely.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Mon May 28 2018, 14:31

@Soulless Samurai"]Something else to consider is that Cult armies are likely to have more than just Wyches in them.

Succubi
- Cursed Blade The warlord trait is crap and the artifact not that nice, but for run of the mill succubi, and in a cult army you will have a few which will have neither an artifact nor are the warlord, and without those they are quite good, no need for the glaive since you have the str to use wych weapons, all of them give some benefit and bonus attacks, and are much better in cursed blade than in the hands of other succubi. 5 s4 2d attacks from the impaler is a lot better than 5 or 6 s3 d2 attacks you would have in strife.
Glaive goes from s5 (stryfe) to 6 blade, not 7, so while not always great, against anything with t3 it is the same as an additional attack and t5 or 6 makes blade better than stryfe. Against the very common t4 a glaive is better in the hands of stryfe.
- Cult of Strife usually not great, you only get 1 out of 4-7 attacks extra and not even always. The artifact is only 1 more attack than a flail on average and it cost you an artifact, which without a warlord trait is not worth it at all for me.
- Red Grief useful. It also has the best Cult artefact and stratagem could be nice to save your warlord.
Overall: I strongly disagree Cursed Blade provides very little. Cult of Stryfe and Red Grief are both good, when you have 1 or maybe 2, but the majority of the succubi are (at least for me) better as cursed blade, although grief comes in as a very close second, for me strife usually does not cut it.


Reavers
- Cursed Blade gets them nothing beyond morale, (might be usefull if you go for a unit of 12 but usually it is not worth it)
- Cult of Stryfe gets them an extra attack, which is quite nice.
- Red Grief gives them +6" of threat range. (By far the best in my mind)

Overall: As with the Succubus, it comes down to Cult of Stryfe vs Red Grief. Cult of Stryfe increases their melee output by 33%-50%. however they do not have that much damage potential anyway for their points. I'd strongly favour Red Grief.


Cursed Blade and strife are out in any army detachment that includes Reavers, and cursed blade might not be great for your warlord if she is a Succubi.
Cult of Stryfe seems to me lackluster. (and has weird anti-synergy with No Escape). It's probably the best of the three in terms of improving the offensive output of all Cult units for reavers,
Cult of stryfe is worse offensively than blade for wyches, and blade also gives morale
Cult of stryfe for hellions is nice, if there are no favored targets probably better than blade, against their favored targets blade is at a slight advantage (since you don't have to charge and possibly eat overwatch, even if you can always charge), morale is felt here a bit as well expecially if you want to use the flyover stratagem.
Generic Succubi still prefer the blade if you go for wych weapons. For you warlord/artifact carriers you will probably prefer grief (their glaive rules) or stryfe (exploding attacks)
Red Grief is the speed one, but also seems to be the toolbox option - giving a variety of different bonuses.

In the previews, Red Grief was the Cult I initially wanted, thinking that speed would be more important than offense. Now I usually take a small detachment grief and the majority Cursed Blade for the additional damage.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Mon May 28 2018, 14:37

@|Meavar Might I suggest a different format next time?

You've quoted me but then written some of your own stuff in the quote, mostly in the exact same text as the rest of the quote. It makes it quite difficult to read. Neutral


EDIT: Nevermind, I see you've changed it.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Mon May 28 2018, 17:16

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Something else to consider is that Cult armies are likely to have more than just Wyches in them.


Yea, I was going to dive into non Wyches later but you pretty much summed up my thoughts on Succubi and Reavers. I do think its worth taking into account that any Wych heavy list should have a split between Cult detachments and get the best of both worlds. I think if you're taking Reavers they should be Red Grief if you can. As far as HQs, I think if you're running Strife, Lelith should be brought. She is a blender in the truest sense. From turn 3 on, 33% of rolls to hit are generating 2 extra hits. Throwing her at a character unit, shredding one, popping your stratagem and shredding another or jumping into a squad is just sick. Plus if you're running 2 cult battalions you need her for rule of 3. Red Grief Succubi is great obviously with the Blood Glaive and the warlord trait isn't bad. Cursed Blade doesn't really bring anything special in regards to Succubi and the Obsession is lost on Reavers.

I do think there is a case for Cursed Blade Hellions If you can find ways to get them in combat without getting shot to hell.

I made a cult list that I think brings all the good of Wych Cults to the table and gives the support of Black Heart Ravagers/Cunning/Writ. Gonna post it in army lists as well. It has a lot of CP, has cP generation but also relies on CP pretty heavy.

@imeaver I don't really get what you mean when you say that Strife works against No Escape. I'm guessing because the obsession only works on a charge. No escape keeps them in control and from getting shot up when someone tries to fall back. I'd much rather fall back on my own turn, pop Cruel Deception then shoot and charge that unit if I really need them dead.

And as far as them being lackluster in combat, by the numbers Strife Wyches with +1A drugs are even to Cursed Blade with +1A to anything up to T6 except Strife, and is actually better against mobs of T3 on the charge. They fall off the second round obviously, but by that point you've done the damage and can fall back/shoot/charge if necessary.

I made a cult list that I think brings all the good of Wych Cults to the table and gives the support of Black Heart Ravagers/Cunning/Writ. Gonna post it in army lists as well. It has a lot of CP, has cP generation but also relies on CP pretty heavy.

Cult of Strife Battalion-5CP
Lelith-80 (Blood Dancer)
Succubus w/Agon,Glaive-54 +2"MV
10x Wyches w/S&I,HG,HG,Agon-97 +1A
10x Wyches w/S&I,HG,HG,Agon-97 +1A
5x Wyches w/S&I, Agon-49 +1S

Red Grief Battalion-5CP
Succubus w/Blood Glaive,SP-50 +1A
Succubus w/Agon,Glaive-54 2"MV
5x Wyches w/S&I, Agon-49 +1A
5x Wyches w/S&I, Agon-49 +1A
5x Wyches w/S&I, Agon-49 +1WS
6x Reavers-114 +1T
6x Reavers-114 +1LD

Black Heart Spearhead-1CP
Archon w/Agon-74(Labryinthe Cunning, Writ of the Living Muse)
Ravager w/Dissx3-125
Ravager w/Dissx3-125
Ravager w/Dissx3-125
Raider w/DL-85
Raider w/DL-85
Raider w/DL-85
Raider w/DL-85
Venom w/SC,TSR-65
Razorwing w/DLx2 RWM-145
Razorwing w/DLx2 RWM-145

14 CP (-2 From AoA and Prizes)

Drugs might get swapped around a little bit. I like having two T5 Reaver squads. This is probably the most min/max I can go with Cults that I can think of staying pure Drukhari. I think Black Heartmakes up for the shooting weakness of pure cult. Moving artifacts and warlord traits around with AoA/Gifts makes the HQs solid over taxes.

There's a part of me that wants to bring a Cult of Strife Voidraven and try to use the stratagem to blow up multiple vehicles/squads in a turn.
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Mon May 28 2018, 17:43

As I view these things (though I haven’t mathed out the math) Cursed Blade is good for Wyches and Hellions, Red Grief gives everything a little extra speed and is most devastating with Reavers, whereas Cult of Strife is the only one that gives a significant offensive advantage to everyone.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Mon May 28 2018, 19:10

@KabaliteSon wrote:
As far as HQs, I think if you're running Strife, Lelith should be brought. She is a blender in the truest sense. From turn 3 on, 33% of rolls to hit are generating 2 extra hits. Throwing her at a character unit, shredding one, popping your stratagem and shredding another or jumping into a squad is just sick.

Is she really that good? I can understand using her for a bit of variety, but she doesn't seem to be bringing a whole lot more than, say, a Cult of Stryfe Succubus with a Triptych Whip - and significantly less than a RG Succubus with the Glaive.

At the very least, I'm not convinced I'd want to make her my warlord.

@KabaliteSon wrote:
Plus if you're running 2 cult battalions you need her for rule of 3.

Yeah, this is one of the biggest failings of our codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Mon May 28 2018, 19:43

@Soulless Samurai wrote:


Is she really that good? I can understand using her for a bit of variety, but she doesn't seem to be bringing a whole lot more than, say, a Cult of Stryfe Succubus with a Triptych Whip - and significantly less than a RG Succubus with the Glaive.

At the very least, I'm not convinced I'd want to make her my warlord.

@KabaliteSon wrote:
Plus if you're running 2 cult battalions you need her for rule of 3.

Yeah, this is one of the biggest failings of our codex.

I think she has to fit the list, if you're bringing just a detachment of Wyches with Black Heart, she shouldn't be the warlord. I think shes one of the nastier character killers inthe game, definitely the best we have. But if you have the CP to AoA her, then shes a beast. 9 attacks on the charge, 7 are AP-4, and turn 3 or 2 with Architects of Pain her rolls of 5-6 generate 2 more hits. On average you can get 14-15 hits on a character, and even wounding on 5s the rerolls give you 7-8 wounds, mostly ap4 depending. I think she's well worth 80 points and a CP.

I think blood glaive is great for a cheap 50 point character but unless I'm missing something I don't think its as fantastic as most people think. Shes 4-5 attacks, and ST 6-7 depending on drugs (I think 2" move may be overkill with her obsession). 3+ invulnerable is great but weight of attacks still kills her. I could see her being a monster with Stimm Addict and Hyperstim Backlash. 5 attacks at S7 or boosting to 6 at S8 can be nasty.
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Mon May 28 2018, 21:42

The difference is the 1d3 damage.
With with no minus to hit that's 4-5 hits basically every attack.
+Attack drugs you get 5 hits against a character, 3.333 wound. But those basically double to 6.666 expected wounds if they don't make any saves against -3 AP.
With +1 str drug you can also go after vehicles with decent success. Hyperstim (for str Cool gives you the same results as above against most vehicles.

Now they can still die to weight of attacks, but like you said 50 pts, and they are a character so those attacks aren't coming in the shooting phase.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Mon May 28 2018, 22:23

@KabaliteSon wrote:

I think she has to fit the list, if you're bringing just a detachment of Wyches with Black Heart, she shouldn't be the warlord. I think shes one of the nastier character killers inthe game, definitely the best we have. But if you have the CP to AoA her, then shes a beast. 9 attacks on the charge, 7 are AP-4, and turn 3 or 2 with Architects of Pain her rolls of 5-6 generate 2 more hits. On average you can get 14-15 hits on a character, and even wounding on 5s the rerolls give you 7-8 wounds, mostly ap4 depending. I think she's well worth 80 points and a CP.

I'd forgotten about Alliance of Agony, that's a good point.

I guess for 80pts you can just throw her at a character and not really care whether she survives.

@KabaliteSon wrote:
I think blood glaive is great for a cheap 50 point character but unless I'm missing something I don't think its as fantastic as most people think. Shes 4-5 attacks, and ST 6-7 depending on drugs (I think 2" move may be overkill with her obsession).

The reasons I like the Blood Glaive are:
- High strength, good AP and multiple damage. In a Cult army, this is the only place where this combination is available. Hell, in terms of characters, I think it might be the only place in the entire codex where it's available. Otherwise, you've got Impailers (2 damage, but low strength and poor AP), regular Glaives (really crap power fists with worse strength and a meagre 1 damage), or Lelith's Penetrating Blades (good AP but poor strength and only 1 damage).
- Unlike the Triptych Whip or Wych Weapons, you're free to take a Blast Pistol alongside it.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult Loadouts. What's best?   Thu May 31 2018, 07:57

@KabaliteSon wrote:
@imeaver I don't really get what you mean when you say that Strife works against No Escape. I'm guessing because the obsession only works on a charge. No escape keeps them in control and from getting shot up when someone tries to fall back. I'd much rather fall back on my own turn, pop Cruel Deception then shoot and charge that unit if I really need them dead.
What I meant was that no escape leads to a higher chance of fighting another turn.
No escape makes wyches usefull as a tarpit against things with few attacks. Often this means good shots, so not having another turn of overwatch is preferential.
And you need to use a stratagem to disengage and charge again.
Overal even if damage between strife and blade are the same the total difference is eating another round of overwatch which means extra shots for them or less attacks since something has to stay in combat to negate the overwatch. And possibly a command point (which you can only do once a turn) to charge after disengaging.


@KabaliteSon wrote:


And as far as them being lackluster in combat, by the numbers Strife Wyches with +1A drugs are even to Cursed Blade with +1A to anything up to T6 except Strife, and is actually better against mobs of T3 on the charge. They fall off the second round obviously, but by that point you've done the damage and can fall back/shoot/charge if necessary.  

How are they the same when taking + attack drugs? They are only the same if you take the strength drug on stryfe wyches, more attacks at s3 nearly always ends up worse than s4 since we have 4 attacks (2 base +1 weapon +1 drug).
Attack drug wyches have 4 attacks => 5 for stryfe (a 25% increase)
Blade gives a str increase (3=>4) vs t3 you go from 50% to 66.7% wounds (a 30% increase)
vs t4 from 33% to 50% (a 50% increase)
vs t5 no difference (here stryfe wins)
vs t6 from 16.6% to 33% (100% increase)
Why would you not want s4 for your wyches, irrelevant if they are stryfe or blade. So Stryfe has some good things (lelith and stratagem), but then you want the +1 str drug not the +1 attack drugs to get to the same damage as the +1 attack drug wyches from blade.
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