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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 06:57

Standardized tables with paper cutout terrain is why I quit Warmachine.
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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 07:07

@withershadow wrote:
Standardized tables with paper cutout terrain is why I quit Warmachine.

Napkins on the table with "ruin" or "lake" written on them definitely do not look inviting to anyone not familiar with the game. Plus it definitely favors certain lists which then become the norm and utterly stagnate the meta to a point where often the winning move is not to play at all and save yourself the time. Terrible design and terrible mindset to balance games around.

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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 10:58

Have you seen the latest?

Instead of addressing the issues, they;ve come down extremely hard and publicly shamed someone caught cheating on their live stream:

https://m.facebook.com/LondonGrandTournament/posts/1884689458248487

Apparently the guy is fairly notorious as being "that kind of player" (which makes me wonder why they allowed him to feature on the stream), and the list of complaints against him looks fairly legit, but theres been furhter backlash based on the fact that they decided to go fully public fairly aggressively, whilst not addressing the other significant issues (terrain, food and drink issues, serious fire risk because of how close all the tables were and no decent evacuation routes!).


[quote="Siticus the Ancient"
Napkins on the table with "ruin" or "lake" written on them definitely do not look inviting to anyone not familiar with the game. [/quote]

Wow, I did NOT see the napkins!!


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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 11:08

To be clear, napkins with words on them is related to Warmachine competitive scene, by the way. Not quite a LGT transgression.

However that post is definitely a bait and switch to deflect blame. Not a great thing that the finale has a cheater in it. Reflects on the whole event even worse.

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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 11:10

@Siticus the Ancient wrote:
To be clear, napkins with words on them is related to Warmachine competitive scene, by the way. Not quite a LGT transgression


Aaaaaah. Rescinded.
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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 11:31

I didnt watch the full video so i'm not going to say some cheating didnt happen, but the large ambiguity of if it is cheating or not and then coming out and saying he is a cheater is really childish, completely disrespectful.

They didnt talk to him, they didnt ask others, they didnt care other than to make a bad situations into a disaster.

Again not saying he didnt cheat, i'm saying its not clear at all and looks like mistakes, the LGT people looks like a child that got into trouble and tattling on another child.

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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 11:36

Honestly, this just adds to how unprofessional the event organisers are coming across as. Before this weekend I'd been wanting to attend next year, now I'm a hard pass; there are plenty of other good sized events to go to in the UK and none of them have anywhere near this number of issues.
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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 11:50

@Burnage wrote:
Honestly, this just adds to how unprofessional the event organisers are coming across as. Before this weekend I'd been wanting to attend next year, now I'm a hard pass; there are plenty of other good sized events to go to in the UK and none of them have anywhere near this number of issues.


And thats exactly the problem.

Not your comment, but that there are a lot of people looking at both the state of the event and at their handling of this "cheater", and thinking the same way. Its putting them off the event.
I've seen a few comments from people being put off all large events in this is an example of them.




Note, one of the organizers also put the video and statement in a Facebook group intended just for event organizerts, and seemed surprised when conversation varied between "this was fairly unprofessional looking" and "what about all the other issues you've not made a statement on".




Also, I have it on good authority from people present that the terrain was much better in the AoS and 40k Narrative sections (yes, they were holding a NARRATIVE PLAY tournament too). It was the only the Matched Play suffering for terrain.
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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 12:06

Post from the event organiser on FB:

Quote :
Dear All,

So that is it! The LGT has finished for another year.

On behalf of the LGT team, I would like to start by saying a special thank you to all of you who attended the event this year, the volunteers who helped out, the TOs and our partners.

I would also like to thank the large number of you who have sent us positive reviews of the event. This is what makes all the hard work worthwhile. Our raison d'etre is to give gamers the event they want when no one else will and we are truly touched by the messages of support we have received these last few days.

Highlights

One of the biggest highlights of the weekend was seeing so many people battling it out in one of London’s most iconic venues to be crowned ‘Tournament Champion’ in the LGT 40k GT. It was a 40k event of unprecedented size in London that drew some of the very best players from around the world. Congratulations to Mike Brandt for winning it and to Mike Porter for winning Best General. The integration between different gaming groups from across the world the LGT has enabled has been amazing to see. Practically every time zone in the world was represented at the event and breaking down boundaries within a community separated by 1000s of miles is a huge motivator for us.

Another highlight was live streaming the 40K invitational and 40K GT to the world. We hope you enjoyed the streaming and would like to take this opportunity to thank all those involved for helping us to do this and for assisting us with the streaming throughout the event. Inevitably when the fire of competition is hot there are bound to be some controversy around player conduct. The LGT takes a hard line on sportsmanship and has regretfully had to take action on this. Despite this, it was amazing to see 1000’s of games played over the weekend and to have had to address so few sportsmanship issues.

Improvements we need to make:

Like all events, we want to improve the LGT from year to year and appreciate your feedback, however critical. Thank you to each and every one of you who have already taken the time to send us constructive criticism of the event and please keep it coming (please send it to feedback@london40kgrandtournament.co.uk ). We value all your opinions and take them all seriously.

Having considered in detail the feedback we have received so far, we have already made the decision to make the following improvements.

a) Terrain

We appreciate that the terrain produced this year for the 40K GT did not meet the standards that many of you expected and we would like to apologise sincerely for this. The idea was to make custom-built terrain for the 40k GT that would address many of the issues with terrain at other events (the lack of line and sight blocking terrain, the inconsistency in the types of terrain across tables). Producing this much custom terrain for over 200 tables is, however, a huge task, but one that we thought was worth it. While we met the task of building the terrain and making it functional (it made a huge difference in many of the 40k games and impacted on the types of lists that could perform well at the event), the quality was well below the standard expected, and well below the standard we are happy to provide. We can assure you that this will be corrected, with the quality of the terrain being markedly improved.

b) Organisation

We would like to take this opportunity to apologise for the late start of the event and difficulties that some of you had with finding the numbers on the tables. The security at the Olympic venue caused issues for us in terms of getting people through the door and registered. This was a huge event and there were issues that arose on the day that we did not foresee. Our apologies again for this. We are still learning, but please be assured that in future years we will correct these issues. Hopefully a marked difference was noted from on the second day of the convention when we were able to have the venue to staff this properly.

In terms of finding table numbers, systems will be implemented next year to facilitate this and we will be increasing the size of our team to help you get to the right table quicker.

c) Venue suitability

Despite the Olympic Stadium being an iconic and grand venue, we know a lot of you found it quite expensive and had issues getting food from the kitchen because of the volume of people at the event.

We know, too, that some of you had concerns about how crowded the rooms were where the 40k GT was being held. We can assure you that all floor plans were agreed with the venue prior to the event and that we made the decision to remove some of the tables in one of the 40k GT rooms and put them upstairs to improve player comfort, following some concerns raised by players during round 1 of the event.

We will look for a better home for the LGT, one that meets all your expectations and one we can be proud of. It's hard to find a place in London that can accommodate so many people and still be viable (this has been our major issue every year). We spent a long time looking for a venue that ticked as many boxes as possible and that was befitting of an event like the LGT. We apologise to all of you that were not happy with it.

Overall, the LGT this year has been a story of highs and lows. We are a so glad that many of you enjoyed the show and are highly motivated to improve where necessary to give everyone the event they want to see.

Kind regards,
Zach

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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 12:22

Its good to see them making a statement and committing to improving, but I'm worried about one small issue.
As I see, the problem here was that they noverreached. They held a much bigger event than they were prepared for, and should perhaps reduce the size and grow more naturally rather than jumping up to the best venue, the most people possible, etc.
I really do hope things get better, though I'm not sure how many people will end up seeing that post now that the bad press is out, and whether this will mean lasting damage.
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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 12:42

Yeah, I'd prefer to see something smaller, maybe 200 players (still a decent size), and in a more suitable venue.

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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 14:47

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Yeah, I'd prefer to see something smaller, maybe 200 players (still a decent size), and in a more suitable venue.

If there's one thing I'm sure of, it's that next year's LGT will be much, much smaller.

Alex shot back at the event organizers for not even bothering to contact him first before lambasting him publicly. Evidently top prize was a box of Orks. Fire exits were blocked. This is competitive 40k at its finest.

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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 15:03

An interesting post on Dakka from someone who's attended the past two years as well as this year's LGT:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/739585.page#9987173

Apparently, ever year has been mismanaged just as badly. Some highlights he brings up from this year(including a bit on the terrain):

Quote :
- Massive queues to get in as only two security on the door. Organisers were offered more security ahead of time but declined. Every event was therefore delayed. Heresy had to ditch a lot of the campaign stuff because of this.
- Same problems with external TOs getting information. Necromunda weren’t made aware of people who cancelled. Heresy sold 96 tickets but we’re only given 40 tables. No space allocated for painting pods that they’d booked. No space or security on the painting comp.
- Only one of the four bars/restaurants were open, and totally unprepared for everyone (now delayed) to eat at the same time. Many people had no lunch.
- Terrain! So, they were so intent on having indentical, ETC style terrain that they refused to use either all the stuff they already had from previous years OR any of the stuff GW brought along to help! Thanks fully, the GW stuff went to Heresy and Narrative, and AoS and Necromunda brought their own, so external events were ok for terrain. However, the LGT organisers decided that ordering a truckload or white polystyrene a week before the event and live-blogging how they totally failed to make enough terrain over the course of the week was a better option. Even given that they didn’t manage to paint it, they STILL opted to use this instead of existing painted terrain to make the event as competitive as possible. So every table had the same identical corners of polystyrene regardless of beautiful game mat it was played on.
- Tables so close together that you were literally back to back with people trying to get around them.
- Some events given rooms made for half the number of people and with no air con.
- People preordered merch which either didn’t turn up OR was sold to regular customers because the merch staff hadn’t been told they were pre-orders!
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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 15:30

@TeenageAngst wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Yeah, I'd prefer to see something smaller, maybe 200 players (still a decent size), and in a more suitable venue.

If there's one thing I'm sure of, it's that next year's LGT will be much, much smaller.

Alex shot back at the event organizers for not even bothering to contact him first before lambasting him publicly. Evidently top prize was a box of Orks. Fire exits were blocked. This is competitive 40k at its finest.

I doubt that the top prize was a box of Orks. My mate won best painted in the GT and got a Warpaints Mega Paint Set, which is about £100.

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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 15:41

https://imgur.com/smJw93i

It may be an exaggeration but not by much.

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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Tue May 22 2018, 19:17

I can't fathom why anyone would travel to the UK and pay to play in those conditions. Sound like a bunch of greedy organizers that prioritise cash over everything else - it's the GW version of wargaming alright.
I'd rather play at a local gaming club even if the terrain is also bad, i can bring my water/food and come back in a few hours.
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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Wed May 23 2018, 06:33

I'm going to weigh in a little bit against all of the negativity. I took a pure Drukhari list and this was my first ever 40k tournament, aside from a 10 man 500pt at my local store.

Despite all of the negativity surrounding this I had a good time, and it seemed like everyone around me at the tables was having a good time too. Ultimately we were all doing what we enjoy, which is playing 40k, rolling dice and smashing each other's armies.

The first game things were very crowded in the main room, but they reshuffled tables after that so the remaining games were fine.

On the subject of game length, only one of my games didn't finish naturally, with us calling it after battle round 3. At no point did I feel rushed or that I couldn't take time to talk with my opponent, but I will agree that the time warning announcements weren't clear to everyone in all areas of the venue.

Due to my games not taking up the entire alloted time I had no problems getting food from the bar in a reasonable time frame.

It was great to meet Lawrence, Bone and the Colonel from Tabletop Tactics, as well as Reece from FLG. My 4th game I was playing on the table right next to Colonel and seeing his 9 basilisk army in person is a sight to behold!

What made the tournament for me despite the organisational issues was the positive friendly attitude of all my opponents and everyone else that I spoke to.

To counter some of the points that have been posted in this thread, I believe the venue alone cost £11k per day, and the organisers made a loss overall, so consider that before calling people "greedy". With regards to standardised terrain layouts, this was in the event pack for months prior to the event, so if that's not the way you want to play, simple don't go, but it shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone attending.

The latest Allies of Convenience podcast episode has a long interview with the organiser. I am only half way through so far, but he seems to be genuinely disappointed with himself for the standard of event that he put on, takes responsibility, and demonstrates understanding of the different viewpoints regarding the criticisms made against the event.

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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Wed May 23 2018, 08:20

Could you link the pod cast if you don't mind?

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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Wed May 23 2018, 10:36


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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Wed May 23 2018, 10:38

THANKS!

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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Wed May 23 2018, 10:52

@hekatrixxy wrote:
I'm going to weigh in a little bit against all of the negativity. I took a pure Drukhari list and this was my first ever 40k tournament, aside from a 10 man 500pt at my local store.

Despite all of the negativity surrounding this I had a good time, and it seemed like everyone around me at the tables was having a good time too. Ultimately we were all doing what we enjoy, which is playing 40k, rolling dice and smashing each other's armies.

I actually agree. Despite the issues, I had a nice weekend.

Quote :
The first game things were very crowded in the main room, but they reshuffled tables after that so the remaining games were fine.

I wouldn't say fine but there was a slight improvement.

Quote :
On the subject of game length, only one of my games didn't finish naturally, with us calling it after battle round 3. At no point did I feel rushed or that I couldn't take time to talk with my opponent, but I will agree that the time warning announcements weren't clear to everyone in all areas of the venue.

Due to my games not taking up the entire alloted time I had no problems getting food from the bar in a reasonable time frame.

Unfortunately I had the opposite and only had one game go beyond turn 3. I think this is more to do with 40K itself though rather than anything to do with the LGT. The fact that we weren't allowed to bring our own food and drink in and had to rely on the single vendor was a definite negative (not to mention the prices).

Quote :
To counter some of the points that have been posted in this thread, I believe the venue alone cost £11k per day, and the organisers made a loss overall, so consider that before calling people "greedy".

I also spoke to a couple of the LGT guys and they said much the same to me. This was never about money for them. I think they just over-reached.

Quote :
With regards to standardised terrain layouts, this was in the event pack for months prior to the event, so if that's not the way you want to play, simple don't go, but it shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone attending.

I don't have a huge issue with the layouts but the quality of the terrain was very disappointing.


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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Wed May 23 2018, 12:05

@Count Adhemar wrote:

'\"hekatrixxy" wrote:
To counter some of the points that have been posted in this thread, I believe the venue alone cost £11k per day, and the organisers made a loss overall, so consider that before calling people "greedy".

I also spoke to a couple of the LGT guys and they said much the same to me. This was never about money for them. I think they just over-reached.


I will briefly say, that "greed" can come in more forms than just cash.
I think they over-reached, out of a desire to hold the biggest competitve event possible. I think they wanted to make a mark on the tournament scene by having a massive event at a prestigious venue that would make people say "wow", and thats why it went wrong.
I can completely understand some of the issues being beyond their control, such as the closed restaurants and limited security, is is maybe down to oversight than anything else (in that they didn't think to arrange these things beforehand) and thats a sympto of jumping to a massive event too soon.
But unfrotunately just looking at this thread here, I think damage is done to the entire tournament scene.

@Trueborn wrote:
I can't fathom why anyone would travel to the UK and pay to play in those conditions.

@TeenageAngst wrote:
This is competitive 40k at its finest.

I'm seeing comments like this crop up all over. And its something we need to fix.
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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Wed May 23 2018, 12:29

@Squidmaster wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:

'\"hekatrixxy" wrote:
To counter some of the points that have been posted in this thread, I believe the venue alone cost £11k per day, and the organisers made a loss overall, so consider that before calling people "greedy".

I also spoke to a couple of the LGT guys and they said much the same to me. This was never about money for them. I think they just over-reached.


I will briefly say, that "greed" can come in more forms than just cash.
I think they over-reached, out of a desire to hold the biggest competitve event possible. I think they wanted to make a mark on the tournament scene by having a massive event at a prestigious venue that would make people say "wow", and thats why it went wrong.

I agree. The greed comment has been thrown around quite a lot in relation to the ticket price and "Where'd all that money go?" so I was just pointing out that this was not monetary greed for these guys but an abundance of ambition which unfortunately did not work out too well. Saying that, I didn't speak to a single person at the event who was complaining about terrain. The complaints I heard were all about the queues and the venue.

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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Wed May 23 2018, 12:33

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Squidmaster wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:

'\"hekatrixxy" wrote:
To counter some of the points that have been posted in this thread, I believe the venue alone cost £11k per day, and the organisers made a loss overall, so consider that before calling people "greedy".

I also spoke to a couple of the LGT guys and they said much the same to me. This was never about money for them. I think they just over-reached.


I will briefly say, that "greed" can come in more forms than just cash.
I think they over-reached, out of a desire to hold the biggest competitve event possible. I think they wanted to make a mark on the tournament scene by having a massive event at a prestigious venue that would make people say "wow", and thats why it went wrong.

I agree. The greed comment has been thrown around quite a lot in relation to the ticket price and "Where'd all that money go?" so I was just pointing out that this was not monetary greed for these guys but an abundance of ambition which unfortunately did not work out too well. Saying that, I didn't speak to a single person at the event who was complaining about terrain. The complaints I heard were all about the queues and the venue.


Really? I'm not sure if maybe it just wasn;t being talked about publicly, but all the photos I saw coming out of the event of the terrain came with complaints.
Maybe people were just expressing themselves on social media, but not saying anything at the time, but without complaints it never would have left the event and come to the attention of everyone else.
I wasn;t there so I can't really speak for definite. Agree on the ambition thing though.
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PostSubject: Re: London GT: How was it, how'd we do?   Wed May 23 2018, 12:41

Most of the 'complaints' I've seen on the terrain have been from people who are commenting on social media posts. Some of those posts were made by people at the event but most seem to have been from others posting a picture of the terrain that had been put up somewhere on the internet and then commenting on that.

Now I'm not defending the quality of the terrain. Make no bones about it, it was abysmal! It did however do a job in terms of providing LOS blocking, which is extremely important. And the table layouts were published months in advance so nobody should be complaining about that.

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