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 Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?

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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Mon May 21 2018, 10:45

If you start to talk about support unit then its worst for the Harlequin cause we need to talk about the cost of their transport
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Mon May 21 2018, 11:15

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:

You take Harlequins to kill, you take Wyches to tarpit and do some damage.

That was exactly my point yes, whych are made for tarpit and they are better than harlequin in that role ... So i dont see how harlequin are better than whyches at what they do . If you take Harlequin to replace whyches then it just mean you using whyches the wrong way

And you can have more than 1 super whyches unit. As long you take the 6 drugs (and its not that hard ) you can spam the same drug as much you want
I agree with this. While Harlequins put out more damaging attacks, Wyches have volume in both attacks and wounds.

5 Harlequins with a Caress on each are what, 100 points with the new costs? 100 points gets you 10 Wyches with full upgrades. S4 or A4 is effortless to achieve, and if you're going full in (as I assume you're doing with the Harlequins), you can easily play around the drugs to get both. Wyches are our best answer to chaff and tie down enemy infantry like nothing else in the game.  

I do not see how Harlequins do this at all, considering they are designed to go after elite targets (especially with the obligatory couple of fusion pistols in each unit). You know, all those units we usually just shoot with Disintegrators.

I do like the new and improved Harlequin Bikes a lot more than Reavers, though.

Soaring Spite seems the most popular, so let's look at that. Throw in a Great Harlequin in as well, why not.

vs. T3 5+ = 20 attacks hit on 3+, wound on 3+, re-roll 1s = 12 wounds
vs. T4 3+ = 8 wounds

Wyches with a Succubus
hitting on 2+, re-rolling 1s

vs. T3 5+
5 power swords = 3.2
8 hydra gauntlets = 5.7
4 impalers = 2.1
24 swords = 10.1

rounding down small fractions, that's 20 wounds

vs. T4 3+
5 power swords = 2
8 hydra gauntlets = 3
4 impalers = 1 (this one deals 2 wounds)
24 swords = 3.8
total = 10 wounds

So in the final analysis, we got Harlequins killing 12 guardsmen, 8 marines, or 4 Primaris.  The Wyches kill 20 guardsmen, 10 marines, or 4.5 Primaris.  If we add an extra attack for Frozen Stars, and only have the Wyches hitting on 3+ (because turn 2 and you don't want to use the stratagem), the Harlequins pull slightly ahead.

Yeah...
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Mon May 21 2018, 11:48

One consideration is that Wyches might be better when actually in combat against certain targets, but the Harlequins' innate advance and charge, Twilight Pathways and higher durability mean that they're more likely to make it into combat in the first place.
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Mon May 21 2018, 15:04

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
If you start to talk about support unit then its worst for the Harlequin cause we need to talk about the cost of their transport

You mean how amazing it is? B.c i'd rather have 10 Starweavers than 13 Venoms, and i do play with 8-10 Starweavers lol.

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Mon May 21 2018, 15:14

star weavers ar so much better than venoms its ridiculous
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Mon May 21 2018, 16:04

65pts to 100pts is a big difference.

I like both

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Mon May 21 2018, 16:11

@colinsherlow wrote:
65pts to 100pts is a big difference.

I like both  

+1 transport, 4++ always advance 6", and it includes 2 Shuriken Cannons, also all my Venoms are 75 b.c im not cutting off the 2nd Splinter Cannon.

But the mass S6 rending is actually damaging in game compare to poison, at least it can hurt vehicles and break armor time to time.


I need to Double check when my book comes in, but if Voidweavers are limited 1 per now (they used to be squads) then my 15 vehicles list is ruined.......

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Mon May 21 2018, 17:40

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
If you start to talk about support unit then its worst for the Harlequin cause we need to talk about the cost of their transport

You mean how amazing it is? B.c i'd rather have 10 Starweavers than 13 Venoms, and i do play with 8-10 Starweavers lol.

I was thinking about raider in fact, who have the same tougness(against lascannon at least ) but better weapon and can carry more. A bit slower ( if not flayed skull ), a bit harder to hide but thats all
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Mon May 21 2018, 18:46

So they are comparable. So the underlying assertion that Harlequins do "everything Wyches do but better" is objectively false.
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Mon May 21 2018, 20:29

Wyches have Troupes have very different jobs. I don't really get why they are being compared to start with.

My army stands a very good chance of using both

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Mon May 21 2018, 20:40

You guys can think what you want, the good news is being right is something I never get tired of, and I'm saying that Harlequins can do anything Wych Cults can but better.

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Mon May 21 2018, 23:29

I think its sad that everyone is compare 300pts of support that no one will take in comp lists to make 104pts Wyches equal to 120pts of Troupes

IMO DE is still a better army for sure, no questions, but also IMO Wyches are still the bottom of DE, Kabal and Coven are just so good its not even a comparison.

Having Harlequins that does what Wyches do, but sooner and better with 0 support (Your wyches you guys get doing math for needs way too much support)

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Tue May 22 2018, 00:15

300 point of support ? What are you talking about ? Succubus are needed to take which cult , like the Harlequin HQ are needed to take troupe ( and cost more ), Reaver are good by themself and are not a taxe and with the minimum of both of these unit i still dont reach 300 point. And the fact that whyches are worst than cabal ( but what is stronger than a 6 point model we such ability anyway ?? ) doesnt mean Harlequin are a better choce than whyches its really different
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Tue May 22 2018, 00:55

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
300 point of support ? What are you talking about ? Succubus are needed to take which cult , like the Harlequin HQ are needed to take troupe ( and cost more ), Reaver are good by themself and are not a taxe and with the minimum of both of these unit i still dont reach 300 point. And the fact that whyches are worst than cabal ( but what is stronger than a 6 point model we such ability anyway ?? ) doesnt mean Harlequin are a better choce than whyches its really different

How are you getting 2 wych units at S4 4A and having your 2 Succubus with either Str or Attack without 8+ <Wych> units?

Thats what i'm talking about. Some of you guys are doing math on S4 4A Wych units, but in reality you will only have 1 of those units and sacrifice from your other units like Succubus, in most cases you wont do that for both Succubui, and even if you do, you still wont have 2 units with S4 and 4A.

Im saying the Math that shows this 1 or 2 Wych unit(s) is almost as strong as a Troupe unit isnt a good bases for comparing the 2, b.c you have other Wych units to gain the require drugs to do so.

In order to have 2 units at S4 4A you need other Wych units, someone literally said they take Hellions and Beastmasters, and i'm saying if you are figuring those into the picture then its not fair to compare against Troupes with 0 support.

Im all happy with doing math and if it is true Wyches are better, cool i have 0 bias in what is better emotionally. I just want to use Realistic math in a Competitive environment and not Min/max something that no one will take, as i said MANY times, there is no point in min/maxing if you are not taking a min/max list.
To me a Beastmanster or Hellions is not min/maxing at all, at this point even Reavers are a point sink imo. I have 12 games played with 9 Reavers and i'm taking them out of all my lists, they dont do enough at all, i even played a few games with just 3, and again, they dont do enough at all, everygame i felt like i wasted points on them, sure they got me a couple VP's in a couple games, but i suffered more damage and could have lost in doing so. I took them out for RWJF and already am much happier.

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Tue May 22 2018, 01:30

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
300 point of support ? What are you talking about ? Succubus are needed to take which cult , like the Harlequin HQ are needed to take troupe ( and cost more ), Reaver are good by themself and are not a taxe and with the minimum of both of these unit i still dont reach 300 point. And the fact that whyches are worst than cabal ( but what is stronger than a 6 point model we such ability anyway ?? ) doesnt mean Harlequin are a better choce than whyches its really different

How are you getting 2 wych units at S4 4A and having your 2 Succubus with either Str or Attack without 8+ <Wych> units?


You only need 6 drug and then you can spam the same drug as much you wish, so 3 from succubus ( with the good warlord trait ) , 1 from reaver , 1 from the 10 girl whyches unit and now you only need one more drug user, generally a 5 girl squad that go with the succubus and its done. Where is your hellion or beastmaster here ?
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Tue May 22 2018, 02:04

Succubus - Stim Addict - +Mv/T
Succubus - +A

Wyches - +S
Wyches - +S
Wyches - +S

Reavers - +Ld
Reavers - +Ws

It is quite disingenuous to talk about "just one single troupe squad". How are you taking a single squad? Not in a patrol, certainly. So we're still talking battalion, so we're talking about ~50-75 extra points of "support", in this case being two squads of reavers.

And for the record, I've never seen TA be right about anything, just a lot of bluster and no proof in the pudding. In this case, he is particularly wrong, since Troupes have significantly different roles than Wyches. So the underlying premise is already bullshit, before you add math and abilities to the equation to seal the deal.

If your only goal is "punch things in melee to death", then Coven is better than either Troupes or Wyches.
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Tue May 22 2018, 02:24

@withershadow wrote:
Succubus - Stim Addict - +Mv/T
Succubus - +A

Wyches - +S
Wyches - +S
Wyches - +S

Reavers - +Ld
Reavers - +Ws

It is quite disingenuous to talk about "just one single troupe squad". How are you taking a single squad? Not in a patrol, certainly. So we're still talking battalion, so we're talking about ~50-75 extra points of "support", in this case being two squads of reavers.

And for the record, I've never seen TA be right about anything, just a lot of bluster and no proof in the pudding. In this case, he is particularly wrong, since Troupes have significantly different roles than Wyches.

Look, you dont have +1 attack on your Wyches, that is my entire point, you WONT have +S and +A realistically on wyches without wasting units/points on drugs.

And IMO Reavers are not Competitive, the entire point of what i was talking about. Take those out and now its even less Drugs.

S4 3A is 10 less attacks, that means its even less wounds and Troupes already were doing more wounds.

I dont care what TA says honestly, i've been ignoring what he has been saying for months now (No offense TA) and i dont even know what he said in this thread.

If you are taking Wyches to be cheaper and dont care if they do 4-5 less wounds than Troupes then this doesnt matter, but if you are going to melee in 8th to kill then it needs to be devastating and fast, and thats what Harlequins do.

This is the idea why i say they are stronger (other than do 2-8 more wounds per unit) The fact you can have a 3(+ more if roll very high charges) units charge turn 1 without trying for a total of 45 attack S5 re-roll wounds is stupid good. Im honestly thinking of maxing out 1 12man troupe unit on foot for turn 1 charge for 60 attacks, they can get a -1 to hit and 3++ turn 1 if they are shot at, at least. That could be up 75 attacks turn 1.

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Tue May 22 2018, 04:43

Haha, that’s fair, I should probably adopt a similar policy regarding his posts. Reavers seemed to do quite well at Alamo, so it could be the vagaries of your meta. Your previous math was incorrect, however. Based on the previous math i showed above, even if you reduce the Wyches’ output by 25%, they are still neck and neck with all but Frozen Star troupes. The different roles for the units have been discussed and nauseum. Harlequins go against elite targets, Wyches clear out chaff and tie down infantry, while Grots outfight either. The premise that they do the same thing and that Troupes do it better remains unsupported.

Btw, they did change Voidweavers to 1 from 1-3 per unit since you were asking earlier.

How are getting first turn charges with non Twilight units? 8” +3D6 is not enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Tue May 22 2018, 04:46

@withershadow wrote:
Haha, that’s fair, I should probably adopt a similar policy regarding his posts. Reavers seemed to do quite well at Alamo, so it could be the vagaries of your meta. Your previous math was incorrect, however. Based on the previous math i showed above, even if you reduce the Wyches’ output by 25%, they are still neck and neck with all but Frozen Star troupes. The different roles for the units have been discussed and nauseum. Harlequins go against elite targets, Wyches clear out chaff and tie down infantry, while Grots outfight either. The premise that they do the same thing and that Troupes do it better remains unsupported.

Btw, they did change Voidweavers to 1 from 1-3 per unit since you were asking earlier.

Im told its 1 Voidweaver now from people with the codex, tho i'm still waiting to see it myself.

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Tue May 22 2018, 04:56

@amishprn86 wrote:
@withershadow wrote:
Haha, that’s fair, I should probably adopt a similar policy regarding his posts. Reavers seemed to do quite well at Alamo, so it could be the vagaries of your meta. Your previous math was incorrect, however. Based on the previous math i showed above, even if you reduce the Wyches’ output by 25%, they are still neck and neck with all but Frozen Star troupes. The different roles for the units have been discussed and nauseum. Harlequins go against elite targets, Wyches clear out chaff and tie down infantry, while Grots outfight either. The premise that they do the same thing and that Troupes do it better remains unsupported.

Btw, they did change Voidweavers to 1 from 1-3 per unit since you were asking earlier.

Im told its 1 Voidweaver now from people with the codex, tho i'm still waiting to see it myself.  

I can confirm that for you. It's 1 per slot. RIP.

Also, I'm in the mindset that the best list for Harlequins right now is Harlequins and DE.

I've tried fitting CWE in there to get Doom/Jinx going, but I don't think that has as much impact as Cunning, Living Muse, plentiful Dissie shots, and cheap Warriors for missions.

What do you guys think? Harlequins + CWE or Harlequins + DE?
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Tue May 22 2018, 05:46

I am not sure the mostly melee Harlequins take advantage of Jinx/Doom as well as the more voluminous shooting of the DE. I think DE+Craftworld or DE+Harlequins is more viable, because the True Kin are the Master Race. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Tue May 22 2018, 05:53

Jinx/Doom BH re-rolls 1's 3 Ravagers is just way to good, it goes from 10.58 wounds vs Rhino to 18.15, that almost doubles the damage.

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Tue May 22 2018, 06:29

@amishprn86 wrote:
Jinx/Doom BH re-rolls 1's 3 Ravagers is just way to good, it goes from 10.58 wounds vs Rhino to 18.15, that almost doubles the damage.

Yes, but, the goal is to incorporate Harlequins.  If I wanted to play DE/CWE, I would.  Oh wait, that's what I've played in the last 10 ITC games :<

With Harlequins costing what they are, how needed is psychic support in the competitive meta?  Is Doom/Jinx powerful enough to justify keeping CWE in the mix or can you do more with just more DE?

Example:

Spoiler:
 


Last edited by HERO on Tue May 22 2018, 17:26; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Tue May 22 2018, 09:07

If you want to mix all three I think you need to keep the Harlequin detachment relatively small, since they're by far the most expensive units. The idea I'm batting around in my head is very similar to your list;

Spoiler:
 

I do think the CWE detachment brings enough novel stuff to the table to be worth including; Doom/Jinx is great against the big, scary units of things like Custodes Jetbikes that are popping up. It's actually the Harlequins that I'm not 100% sold on yet, since I tend to shy away from melee units - I'll need to play around with them once the Codex releases to see if they wind up punching their weight.
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Tue May 22 2018, 17:29

Ooo.. I like that spoiler tag. Using it.

And yes, I agree, it's the Harlequins that take up too many points in a list.

For me, there's a big balancing game between CWE, DE, and Harlequins. We already know that Doom/Jinx are amazing compliments to our psykerless army, and what the Hemlock and Crimson Hunter Ex brings to the table. However, if Harlequins are truly only reduced to a Patrol in your army, why bring them at all?

Are they competitive enough to justify a larger slot in your army?
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