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 Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?

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Captain_Orzy
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PostSubject: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 00:10

With the Harlequins up for pre order and alot of their codex info available to gleam through, which Archons among us would consider bringing them for allies, from a personal point of view they look like a more elite version of wych cullts with psychic elements and with better but more expensive venom chassis (the 4+ invuln is nice) but it feels that these elements could be covered with our current Drukhari units or Craftworld allies such as why a shadowseer when you have access to farseers (comparing the 2 psychic powers), or take wyches just to have more bodies.

Guess what I'm saying what type of role will you be using your Harlequins in?, whats units would you take including their masque forms?. Also what certain aspects does the upcoming codex Harley roster have to offer for your existing armies? I might consider 500 points for Harly allies for a 2k list down the line when I've heard some good input.

Share your thoughts!


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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 00:17

I'll be adding DE to my Harlequins, i enjoy them much more. BH with Archon and 3 Ravagers for long range support with my Harlequins.

A good ally for DE would be DJ's, DJ's are 45's take them as Dreaming Sorrow and have some really good synergy with PGL's and also there is a stratagem that makes their hits 2 hits instead. ALso a Starweaver, for 234pts you get 3 character, 5 shuriken cannons and a 16" moving LD messing up units.

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 00:22

I'm thinking of adding in a Soaring Spite Patrol with a Shadowseer, 5 man Troupe all with Fusion Pistols and Embraces, and a Starweaver. Maybe some Skyweavers with Haywire Cannons.

Just the Starweaver and its embarked units will come to over 360 points, but on paper I can see it working like a shotgun blast. Fly towards the biggest, scariest unit on the map and absolutely nuke it with the combination of Fusion, Hallucination Grenades and Shuriken Cannons. If the Starweaver blows up? No big deal, Faolchu's Talon means everyone inside it will be perfectly fine.

They're not necessarily doing anything that another Eldar unit couldn't do. But I kind of want to take the Shadowseer as well as Craftworld Psykers, and I want to see whether I prefer the short-ranged but incredibly mobile anti-tank of the Fusion Starweaver to Ravagers.
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 01:02

I'll be adding Harlequins to my Harlequins lists. Or alternatively using them to replace my entire Wych Cult because they do everything Cults do but better.

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 04:41

I dont really play competitively, but I am looking to buy a Harlequin force, and play an Eldar/DE/Harly army for funsies
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 05:15

Could do something like this where its more 50/50

1850pts

Black Heart
Archon, Relic, WL trait
Ravager
Ravager
Ravager

Pof Coven
Haemonculus, Vext mask
Urien
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Grots x8

Frozen Sorrow
TM, FP, Embrace
TM, FP, Embrace
Troupe x5, x5 Embrace
Troupe x5, x5 Embrace
Troupe x5, x5 Embrace
Starweaver
Starweaver
Starweaver

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 08:13

Me me me! Equal split pretty much:

Quote :
Soaring Heart
2000 // 13 CP

Soaring Spite Bat +5

HQ:
Troupe Master, Caress, Fusion = 86
Troupe Master, Caress, Fusion = 86

TROOP:
5x Troupe, 5x Caress, 2x Fusion = 118
Starweaver = 99
217

5x Troupe, 5x Caress, 2x Fusion = 118
Starweaver = 99
217

5x Troupe, 5x Caress, 2x Fusion = 118
Starweaver = 99
217

ELITE:
Solitaire = 98

+++

Black Heart Bat +5

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91
Cunning, Living Muse

Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47

PARTY BOATS:
Raider, Dissie = 80
Raider, Dissie = 80
Raider, Dissie = 80

HEAVY:
Ravager, 3x Dissies = 125
Ravager, 3x Dissies = 125
Ravager, 3x Dissies = 125

>>>

Firepower:
12 Disintegrators at BS3+
24 Splinter Rifles at BS3+
6 Blasters at BS3+
2 Blasters at BS2+
6 Shuriken Cannons at BS3+
6 Fusion Pistols at BS3+
2 Fusion Pistols at BS2+

Great Harlequin for one of the TMs, Cregorach's Rose for the Solitaire, and let's get rolling.

Maybe remove the Blasters from the Archons for just more Fusion Pistols Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 10:22

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Or alternatively using them to replace my entire Wych Cult because they do everything Cults do but better.

What make you said that ?

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 11:08

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Or alternatively using them to replace my entire Wych Cult because they do everything Cults do but better.

What make you said that ?


the harlequin codex does
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 11:08

I'll be forgetting my Drukhari in favour of my Harlequins, I have to admit Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 12:22

@AzraeI wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Or alternatively using them to replace my entire Wych Cult because they do everything Cults do but better.

What make you said that ?



the harlequin codex does

Yes and so ? I dont see how harlequin are better than whyches at what thzy are supposed to do
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 13:35

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@AzraeI wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Or alternatively using them to replace my entire Wych Cult because they do everything Cults do but better.

What make you said that ?



the harlequin codex does

Yes and so ? I dont see how harlequin are better than whyches at what thzy are supposed to do

4 attacks base S5 -2ap (or S4 -3ap) re-roll wounds Advance and charge, fallback and charge, always a 4++

Wyches right now will only have 2/4 models out of 5/10 with any real damage, the other 3-6 models are kinda just wounds for the others and do no real damage. 3 attacks at S3 -0ap is pointless, especially when you could be Frozen Sorrow and have 25 attacks in a 5man unit that wounds on 3+ -2ap while advancing and charging with better pistols even if you needed too (shuriken is always better than poison in 8th)


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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 13:40

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@AzraeI wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Or alternatively using them to replace my entire Wych Cult because they do everything Cults do but better.

What make you said that ?



the harlequin codex does

Yes and so ? I dont see how harlequin are better than whyches at what thzy are supposed to do

4 attacks base  S5 -2ap (or S4 -3ap) re-roll wounds Advance and charge, fallback and charge, always a 4++

Wyches right now will only have 2/4 models out of 5/10 with any real damage, the other 3-6 models are kinda just wounds for the others and do no real damage. 3 attacks at S3 -0ap is pointless, especially when you could be Frozen Sorrow and have 25 attacks in a 5man unit that wounds on 3+ -2ap while advancing and charging with better pistols even if you needed too (shuriken is always better than poison in 8th)


Whyches : cost less, have the no escape rule, are more hard to kill in cc , power from pain ( we reroll charge, harlequin don't , rigth ? )

If your point is that whyches do less damage than Harlequin its true but its normal cause whyches are not here to do a lot of damage. I'm sorry but when i see pure harlequin army and compare it to my pure whych cult list  i dont see how Harlequin could be better in any match-up.

Edit: And in pratice with drug and obsession whyches never have only 3 attacks at S3. My main wych unit have 4 S4 attacks and even my red grief whyches have 4 attack

I dont say harlequin are a bad addition dont get me wrong, but i wont replace whyches by them. In fact i would rather add them to a whych cult list to get real hard hitter in cc
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 13:49

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@AzraeI wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Or alternatively using them to replace my entire Wych Cult because they do everything Cults do but better.

What make you said that ?



the harlequin codex does

Yes and so ? I dont see how harlequin are better than whyches at what thzy are supposed to do

4 attacks base  S5 -2ap (or S4 -3ap) re-roll wounds Advance and charge, fallback and charge, always a 4++

Wyches right now will only have 2/4 models out of 5/10 with any real damage, the other 3-6 models are kinda just wounds for the others and do no real damage. 3 attacks at S3 -0ap is pointless, especially when you could be Frozen Sorrow and have 25 attacks in a 5man unit that wounds on 3+ -2ap while advancing and charging with better pistols even if you needed too (shuriken is always better than poison in 8th)


Whyches : cost less, have the no escape rule, are more hard to kill in cc

If your point is that whyches do less damage than Harlequin its true but its normal cause whyches are not here to do a lot of damage. I'm sorry but when i see pure harlequin army and compare it to my pure whych cult list  i dont see how Harlequin could be better in any match-up.

Edit: And in pratice with drug and obsession whyches never have only 3 attacks at S3. My main wych unit have 4 S4 attacks and even my red grief whyches have 4 attack

thats the point, everything is cheap and spammy and ties smth up or is harrassing this and that, harlequins are better and we all know it
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 13:51

@AzraeI wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@AzraeI wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Or alternatively using them to replace my entire Wych Cult because they do everything Cults do but better.

What make you said that ?



the harlequin codex does

Yes and so ? I dont see how harlequin are better than whyches at what thzy are supposed to do

4 attacks base  S5 -2ap (or S4 -3ap) re-roll wounds Advance and charge, fallback and charge, always a 4++

Wyches right now will only have 2/4 models out of 5/10 with any real damage, the other 3-6 models are kinda just wounds for the others and do no real damage. 3 attacks at S3 -0ap is pointless, especially when you could be Frozen Sorrow and have 25 attacks in a 5man unit that wounds on 3+ -2ap while advancing and charging with better pistols even if you needed too (shuriken is always better than poison in 8th)


Whyches : cost less, have the no escape rule, are more hard to kill in cc

If your point is that whyches do less damage than Harlequin its true but its normal cause whyches are not here to do a lot of damage. I'm sorry but when i see pure harlequin army and compare it to my pure whych cult list  i dont see how Harlequin could be better in any match-up.

Edit: And in pratice with drug and obsession whyches never have only 3 attacks at S3. My main wych unit have 4 S4 attacks and even my red grief whyches have 4 attack

thats the point, everything is cheap and spammy and ties smth up or is harrassing this and that, harlequins are better and we all know it

Maybe i'm wrong, but i dont think so . We will see in pratice
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 14:26

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@AzraeI wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@AzraeI wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Or alternatively using them to replace my entire Wych Cult because they do everything Cults do but better.

What make you said that ?



the harlequin codex does

Yes and so ? I dont see how harlequin are better than whyches at what thzy are supposed to do

4 attacks base  S5 -2ap (or S4 -3ap) re-roll wounds Advance and charge, fallback and charge, always a 4++

Wyches right now will only have 2/4 models out of 5/10 with any real damage, the other 3-6 models are kinda just wounds for the others and do no real damage. 3 attacks at S3 -0ap is pointless, especially when you could be Frozen Sorrow and have 25 attacks in a 5man unit that wounds on 3+ -2ap while advancing and charging with better pistols even if you needed too (shuriken is always better than poison in 8th)


Whyches : cost less, have the no escape rule, are more hard to kill in cc

If your point is that whyches do less damage than Harlequin its true but its normal cause whyches are not here to do a lot of damage. I'm sorry but when i see pure harlequin army and compare it to my pure whych cult list  i dont see how Harlequin could be better in any match-up.

Edit: And in pratice with drug and obsession whyches never have only 3 attacks at S3. My main wych unit have 4 S4 attacks and even my red grief whyches have 4 attack

thats the point, everything is cheap and spammy and ties smth up or is harrassing this and that, harlequins are better and we all know it

Maybe i'm wrong, but i dont think so . We will see in pratice

Its 105pts for a Troupe unit that can kill 10.5 MEQ or 15 GEQ with a TM near, your super Wych unit is 9pts cheaper and can kill 13 GEQ and 6 MEQ.
And without the Super unit, its really bad.

So its close right? But all troupes are that strong where you only have 1 Wych unit that strong, a Battalion of Troupes for 315pts can kill much more. Also their base Pistols are better.

You take Harlequins to kill, you take Wyches to tarpit and do some damage. Having 1 super Wych unit is cool, but a Battalion on Wych compare to Quins wont do the damage damage at all.

Troupes also can advance+charge, fallback+shoot+charge, move over terrain and models, and finally always has a 4++.

The only think that Wyches are better at are Wounds, tho so far for me playing many games with harlequins, having only 15 Troupes compare to 20 Wyches (what i have been playing) Troupes just work better.

Im not saying Wyches are bad, they are in fact good now, for sure the most improve unit in the game for real this time. I'm saying for killing effectiveness for the points Troupes are better

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 14:48

@amishprn86 wrote:

You take Harlequins to kill, you take Wyches to tarpit and do some damage.

That was exactly my point yes, whych are made for tarpit and they are better than harlequin in that role ... So i dont see how harlequin are better than whyches at what they do . If you take Harlequin to replace whyches then it just mean you using whyches the wrong way

And you can have more than 1 super whyches unit. As long you take the 6 drugs (and its not that hard ) you can spam the same drug as much you want
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 15:59

The question of Cult vs Harlequins really doesn't come down to Troupes vs Wyches. Troupes are undeniably stronger, but you are also looking at a higher overall investment. Not only are the Troupes more expensive, their transport is as well. A Starweaver transports 6 models for 100pts, while a Raider can carry 10 Wyches for 80 points.

I can see Harlequinn Batallions replacing Cult Batallions, but Red Grief outriders will still be popular.
I don't see my (Red Grief) Reavers being replaced with Skyweavers. Neither will Voidweavers replace my Ravagers/Razorwings.

Perhaps I change my opinion when I dig deeper into Quinn stratagems and WL traits. For now, I will stick to my Alliance of Agony and keep being in love with my Red Grief secondary Warlord.

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 16:12

I love how my offhand observations are defended to the hilt by other people before I even have a chance to respond.

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 16:23

I still get no answer to my initial question: whychs are good at tarpitting infantery unit, in which way harlequin are better at doing that ?
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 16:30

By physically removing said infantry unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 17:55

Wyches aren't really tarpits anymore. they are lightweight sticky bombs. They are mop up CC designed to tie up their target solely because otherwise they'd disintegrate. They need to kill their target on their own eventually and they accomplish this by hemorrhaging bodies like it's going out of style. Consequently Harlequins take an upscale approach to the same problem and ideally won't have to hemorrhage profusely.

Now having said that, TA is not talking about Wyches they are talking about <wych cult>. I disagree but I respect their opinion, and hey maybe we'll get a chance to see that out at an event, but I don't think their comment should be generating the storm of controversy I'm seeing.
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Sun May 20 2018, 18:03

*Mistake*
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Mon May 21 2018, 09:56

6 harlequins (13+6/7)*6=114-120 points:
6*5+1 = 31 attacks on 3+ s4 ap -3
=13.8 dead GEQ
2*5 wyches = (8*10+4*4=104):
2*4 s4 attacks ap -3 + 2*4 attacks s4 reroll wound ap -1 + 6*4 s4 ap- attacks ws 3+/2+
=4.44+4.94+8.88 = 18.2 after turn 2 and still 14.6 in turn 1 and 2

Don't get me wrong against most targets harlequins are much better, but when going against GEQ, or demons or pretty much anything without a good save and t3, wyches do deal more damage, expecially after turn 2. And yes when going with 3 squads wyches it might not be as good, but when you make a wych cult army, you will fill those "bad" drugs to others, ld to the beastmaster, ws & move to the succubus, t to the reavers and s to the hellions so all my wyches can have attack drugs if I want to, Although against some armies I might prefer to give them the str drug instead.
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PostSubject: Re: Who will be adding Harlequins to their Drukhari lists?   Mon May 21 2018, 10:32

You cant isolate Troupes and not do the same for Wyches, you are taking pointless units to make those 2 5mans a bit stronger. Succubus = TM for now, but Hellions and a Beast master? Thats another Troupe unit i can take that will have full 13+ killing power compare to... -0ap attacks? lol. And with a TM near its 17.8.

Basic Wych unit (10man, 4 weapons, 3 wych ones) are much weaker than Troupes, do the math for no support Troupes vs No support Wyches.If i took other units to support my Troupes like you did for Wyches (Hellions/BM, etc.. to gain the buffs) then you should do the same for Troupes.

You take Harlequins for turn 1-2 Charges with raw power that doesnt need 4-7 other units to support them.

Im just saying, you need to be fair when gauging units together, you cant say you have a Wych army that supports each other giving buffs and not do the same for the Harlequins. You should also compare same points, if you need 200 points to support those 104 points of Wyches then do the same for the Harlequin's.


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