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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Thu Aug 16 2018, 23:59

@Dibs wrote:
The army lacks a proper ranged TEQ option. I would kind of like to see Sslyth moved to blades for hire, moved to plastic, sold as units of 3 and given access to haywire and shredders. A man can dream...

To be honest, I'd rather have a unit like Trueborn (and actually in the codex) - being an elite version of Warriors with access to more/different weapons.

Then again, I'd like more options in general. As it stands, we've basically got one HQ and one troop unit and that's it. The only variety is in the Court . . . which is limited to 4 models per detachment. Neutral


@Dibs wrote:
Also just curious, does anyone use Ur-ghouls at all?

I don't see the point.

For one thing, they're pretty damn limited. They have no shooting attack and no AP on their melee weapon, which really limits their usefulness.

Then you've got the fact that they directly compete with better models. They take up Court slots which seem better spent on Lhamaeans or Sslyth (especially since I run a Poison Tongue army). Then, in terms of cost, they compete with Mandrakes which can deep strike, have better AP, have a nice shooting attack that can deal Mortal Wounds etc.

Finally, they've got the same problem as Medusae in that they seem to be designed as suicide units, yet (in order to perform well) they want you to have a not-inexpensive HQ babysitting them.

Now, I'm prepared to throw an HQ into a dangerous situation with Lhamaeans (mainly because I run two, so the non-Warlord can safely suicide). But Lhamaeans can easily get several Mortal Wounds on a non-vehicle target. Meanwhile, all Ur-Ghuls can offer are some S4 AP- attacks. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Fri Aug 17 2018, 00:59

Yeah that makes sense. I can see why they removed blaster born though. Seemed like the easy choice to spam in venoms. It also made scourges more relevent.

Succubus on a bike/board, haemy with wings and an Archon ravager would be nice for HQ choices imo
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Fri Aug 17 2018, 09:40

@Dibs wrote:
Yeah that makes sense. I can see why they removed blaster born though. Seemed like the easy choice to spam in venoms. It also made scourges more relevent.

Perhaps, but is there a reason why this is bad for us, and yet fine for other armies? e.g. IG has plasma Scions in both Elites and troops, which don't even need transports (due to deep strike).

The only reason Trueborn were removed is because they lack dedicated models.

@Dibs wrote:

Succubus on a bike/board, haemy with wings and an Archon ravager would be nice for HQ choices imo


I'd much prefer a winged Archon, to be honest. But then, I also think his aura should at least work on mercenary units.

I'm curious, though - would an 'Archon Ravager' be like a transport, or would it be like an IG Tank Commander?

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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Fri Aug 17 2018, 10:22

I don't know much about other armies but I thought the other part to the is because DE are the only army that can shoot out of transports. I'm not sure though.

A winged archon would be sweet, but I was thinking thematically, why would he fly when he can relax in his flying yacht. That and it makes sense thematically for the haemy to get them since the scourges go under the knife for theirs.

Archon ravager I was thinking like the tank commander , but I'd take either :p
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Fri Aug 17 2018, 11:07

I guess the argument in the past (beyond "we used to be able") has been that in lore some things have been mentioned and exist. Reaver and Hellion gangs have had leaders mentioned before, so being able to field those would be awesome.
I don;t think theres every been any mention of leadership within Scourge, but I suppose theres no reason an Archon couldn't choose to have the operation and become Scourge.


On Trueborn, I'd say that both Trueborn and Dracons should become single model units - characters I should say. Same with Bloodbrides and Hekatrixes.
Let them fill the role of Space Marine Champions, Apothecaries, that sort fo thing as characters who can buff nearby units and fill in other HQ slots. Thats something we really need compared to other armies.
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Fri Aug 17 2018, 11:16

@Dibs wrote:
I don't know much about other armies but I thought the other part to the is because DE are the only army that can shoot out of transports. I'm not sure though.

Possibly, but when you have troops for about 75pts with 2 plasmaguns and a plasma pistol that can deep strike, you really don't need transports (opened-top or otherwise). You might as well just buy a second squad for about the same cost.

@Dibs wrote:
A winged archon would be sweet, but I was thinking thematically, why would he fly when he can relax in his flying yacht.

I actually talked about this a while back, so I'm just going to quote myself:

Firstly, there's the possibility of a Scourge becoming an Archon:

@Soulless Samurai wrote:

- Scourges generally have their own sub-society, but it's not hard to imagine that a few of them would maintain or develop political interests beyond that.

- Also, given that Scourges already act as mercenaries, it's entirely possible that one could gain power in a similar manner to Baron Sathonyx (technically, he might not be an Archon, but since we don't have a 'Gang Leader' HQ, I think the Archon would suffice).

Second, an Archon investing in wings:

@Soulless Samurai wrote:

- In terms of Archons who don't start off as Scourges, it's worth remembering that Scourge wings are only available to the rich. Hence, an Archon could easily decide that he wants a pair as much for status as anything else.

- There's also the ego aspect. To quote a Scourge from Dawn of War: "The earth does not deserve to touch my feet." Given that many Archons have been shown to think along similar lines (especially those belonging to the Flayed Skull), wings might well be an attractive notion. This way the Archon can leave his Venom/Raider to carve up his foes in person, without ever having to lower himself to the level of an earthbound footsoldier.

- Finally, there's the possibility of eccentricity, madness, obsession etc.. Perhaps an Archon comes to feel more kinship with his Scourges than with any of his normal retainers. Perhaps he comes to see a purity in their methods, soaring high above the politics of the Dark City, and decides to let his lieutenants take the helm of his Raiders and Venoms, whilst he descends with his favoured flock
of Scourges.

Really, there are any number of reasons why an Archon might decide to invest in Scourge wings.

One thing I'll add is that it doesn't even have to be a choice between 'relaxing in a transport' and 'flying around with wings'. Granted, Venoms and Raiders can't normally carry winged models, but this is the Archon. They're his transports and they'll damn well carry him if he tells them to, wings and all.

Just have a rule that he can still ride in Raiders and Venoms, but takes up three slots (it would be two slots but he likes to put his feet up Wink ).

@Dibs wrote:
That and it makes sense thematically for the haemy to get them since the scourges go under the knife for theirs.

I certainly wouldn't object to Haemonculi having wings as well. They could perhaps be more 'visceral', looking slightly mutant or malformed, as opposed to the pristine wings of Scourges (and, if I get my way, Archons).

@Dibs wrote:
Archon ravager I was thinking like the tank commander , but I'd take either :p

Well, the main reason I asked was because, unlike Tank Commanders, Archons aren't wholly reliant on their transports to inflict damage. Hence, it might be nice if they didn't automatically die with their Ravagers, if you see what I mean.

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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Fri Aug 17 2018, 16:07

@Dibs wrote:
Yeah that makes sense. I can see why they removed blaster born though. Seemed like the easy choice to spam in venoms. It also made scourges more relevent.

Succubus on a bike/board, haemy with wings and an Archon ravager would be nice for HQ choices imo
Zero decisions were based on balance, blasterborn were "removed" because there is no model. If they are "the easy choice to spam in venoms", you still can do that.
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Sat Aug 18 2018, 00:58

@withershadow wrote:
@Dibs wrote:
Yeah that makes sense. I can see why they removed blaster born though. Seemed like the easy choice to spam in venoms. It also made scourges more relevent.

Succubus on a bike/board, haemy with wings and an Archon ravager would be nice for HQ choices imo
Zero decisions were based on balance, blasterborn were "removed" because there is no model. If they are "the easy choice to spam in venoms", you still can do that.

I personally never wanted to do it, but when i started 40k at the end of 7th with DE, spamming blasterborn in venoms is literally all the advice i got on the game! Either way, it's obvious though that they are phasing them out, wont be long before GW say no to any index entries.
If we kick and scream about it, how many editions do you think it will be before they release a model for them?
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Sat Aug 18 2018, 09:32

@Dibs wrote:

If we kick and scream about it, how many editions do you think it will be before they release a model for them?

A number of years roughly equal to 1 divided by 0.

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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Sun Aug 19 2018, 09:38

Annoys the crap out of me that, for example, IG have conscripts, guardsmen and veterans that all use the exact same models and that's apparently fine but we're not allowed to do the same with Wyches and Bloodbrides. Same with many SM units that don't have models but are still allowed but again, all our units with no models get deleted. Such hypocricy!

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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Sun Aug 19 2018, 23:20

@Dibs wrote:
Either way, it's obvious though that they are phasing them out, wont be long before GW say no to any index entries.

Models no longer in production are not listed in the Codex so new players don’t go looking for them. GW may get rid of index entries but they’ve explicitly said otherwise on multiple occasions. At worst, it’s at least an edition away (and if AoS is any indication, no legacy stuff was invalidated even after a rules update). I guess I don’t understand this attitude. Because GW may do something years in the future that they specifically said they won’t do, somehow makes index options invalid?

Blasterborn aren’t even that great compared to warrior squads. They are pretty fun with shredders tho.
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Fri Sep 14 2018, 18:25

Nothing so far has convinced me that DE have been dominating enough that needs a nerf.

This isn't like 7th Ed. Fantasy Daemons where the Top 8 of every major in a year was 75% Daemon players of all variants.

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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Fri Sep 14 2018, 21:08

Agreed. The FAQ rumors about a 25 point increases to Talos is insane to me. We have a good codex, yes. But other than maybe a slight points adjustment to dissies, nothing in our codex should be nerfed.
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Fri Sep 14 2018, 21:14

Dissie and Dark Lance prices need to switch, Grots probably need to go up a tad, the Talos maybe needs its unit size cut, and Agents of Vect needs to go to once a turn. That's about it.

The problems, as it's been stated before, are with allies

Only have your Warlord's faction generate CP, which can only be used on Strategem's from your Warlord's book. Bam, no more Guard CP batteries, so they can stop being smashed with the nerf bat over interactions with allies. Limit Psychic powers to affecting only the faction the Psyker belongs to. Bang, the problems with Haywire Bikes and Ravagers mostly disappear.
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Fri Sep 14 2018, 21:59

@TheBaconPope wrote:
Dissie and Dark Lance prices need to switch, Grots probably need to go up a tad, the Talos maybe needs its unit size cut, and Agents of Vect needs to go to once a turn. That's about it.

Do you think the issue is with Grots and Talos or with the Prophets of Flesh bonus being too strong?

@TheBaconPope wrote:

Only have your Warlord's faction generate CP, which can only be used on Strategem's from your Warlord's book. Bam, no more Guard CP batteries, so they can stop being smashed with the nerf bat over interactions with allies. Limit Psychic powers to affecting only the faction the Psyker belongs to. Bang, the problems with Haywire Bikes and Ravagers mostly disappear.

This would be an excellent start to fixing allies.

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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Sat Sep 15 2018, 02:22

Quote :
Do you think the issue is with Grots and Talos or with the Prophets of Flesh bonus being too strong?

Prophets are definitely strong, but I think equal blame lies in the other two choices being distinctively lackluster. I run three Talos in my usual list and find they preform fine for their points. Not great shooting, okay melee, but they will refuse to die under any circumstances. The key difference is that it's difficult, but manageable to handle three pain engines, it's another thing entirely when you have nine of the things trudging the board.

Grots I don't have too much experience with, but they're definitely in a lot of lists. That's probably because of Prophets, honestly

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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Sat Sep 15 2018, 03:22

Perhaps Prophets of Flesh should have gotten a bonus to their inured to Suffering rolls instead of a 4+ invul save. That way, high damage / high AP weapons would still get some of their damage through, but PoF would still be fairly resilient.
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