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Burnage
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PostSubject: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 13:28

We've had the Codex for a while now, and most of us will have had a chance to play with it. I think most of us will also agree that we're in a pretty good spot, but the question does arise; what changes are we expecting for us in the future? Based upon the games I've played and tournament results so far, I'd suggest the following;

Nerf Candidates
Ravagers - they're too cheap for what they do and how well they interact with the Black Heart.
Disintegrator Cannons - these at least need to be on par with Dark Lances in price point.
Grotesques - under 9 points per wound with T6, 4++ and 6+++? Horrifyingly durable and big units of them are tearing up tournaments.
Kabalites - literally half the price of most other Eldar infantry, comparable in defense and arguably better offensively.
Reavers - maybe a consequence of the other Cult units being slightly weak, but they're overshadowing all of them in competitive environments.

Buff Candidates
Hellions - still fragile for their points, and Reavers do a similar job better.
Incubi - have no niche any more.
Beasts - outclassed by other units in the Codex.
Court of the Archon - the Llhamaean and Sslyth are fine, but the Medusae and Ur-Ghul are in a really weird spot.
Dark Lances - potentially controversial, but the shine on these has gone slightly since the Index relative to our other wargear options. Making them Assault would be a minor, yet very helpful buff.
Voidraven Bomber - it's solid, but it's also pretty difficult to justify taking over the Razorwing.
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 13:43

I'd like to see Incubi given a role back. Give them 2 damage, or some ability to deal MWs maybe and they'd slot back in as much more functional elite killers. Conversely I'd like to see Hellions 2 damage removed for either some AP or a jink type save, their role feels confused with dealing multi wounds but unable to get them through on anything important. I'd really like to see reavers guns changed to splinter pods too, even if it's with a points increase. Having all that speed and an advance special rule, but no assault weapons just seems daft.

Agree with your list of nerf targets too. I wouldn't be surprised to see any of them changed.


Last edited by yellabelly on Wed May 16 2018, 13:51; edited 1 time in total
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Rashkasha
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 13:46

How about serious lack of HQ options, both units and equipment?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 13:51

@Rashkasha wrote:
How about serious lack of HQ options, both units and equipment?

I'm not sure that's restricted to just HQs, the combination of splitting us into three sub-factions, two of our units getting removed and seven (!) of our units not filling detachment slots means that we have very few options for every slot type.

It's most visible with HQs but we could really do with more units full stop.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 14:13

@Rashkasha wrote:
How about serious lack of HQ options, both units and equipment?

Yeah, I think our HQ section is still in dire need of improvement. We have some nice Artefacts and Warlord traits now, but the base units should be able to stand on their own - and right now they leave a lot to be desired.

If our army is going to be split into 3 mini-factions, then each of those should have 2 (non-special character) HQs minimum.

And then we've got the complete lack of mobility options on them. Because apparently it's fine for Necrons - who got to keep every single one of their 5th edition characters - to get a third flying HQ model; yet we, supposedly the fastest army - who lost most of our HQs - aren't even allowed one.

Hell, even their regular equipment is lacking. Weapons aren't too bad. I mean, the Succubus' Glaive is still abysmal and basically every Haemonculi weapon other than the Electrocorrosive Whip is terrible, but that's basically par for the course anyway. What really annoys me is that none of our HQs have a single non-weapon piece of wargear between them. The Archon's Soul Trap was turned into a stratagem, along with the Crucible of Malediction. And that's it. Where's the option for Ghostplate Armour or a Clone Field on an Archon? Where are the weird eldritch gadgets that he and the Haemonculus are famed for? Where's anything that isn't a generic weapon or an artefact?

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 14:30

I think it's indicative of the edition, but 8th definitely struggles in helping my dudes feel like my dudes.

An Archon in 7th edition had access to the Clone Field, Haywire Grenades, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shadow Field, Soul Trap, and Webway Portal. Now he has access to...the Grenade Launcher, with every other piece of equipment there being relegated to a special rule or Stratagem.

I understand the reasoning for a lot of that, and agree in a lot of cases, but there's nothing to distinguish "Kaestra Framarr, Scourge of Seven Thousand Worlds," and "that git over there."

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 15:06

I yearn for the days when the carousel of good and bad units didn't spin an army list from usable to utter trash within the span of 3 months. Stop pretending to know what is and is not overpowered and let the meta sort it out.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 15:20

Regarding Warriors, the one thing I'll say is that - even taking into account their low cost - they really haven't impressed me so far. Frankly, they feel squads of 1 Blaster and 4 Balloons, given how little their splinter rifles accomplish. Razz

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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 16:11

I honestly think it's a little premature to predict changes based on the tournament results. Our codex is still relatively new and opponents are still learning how to play against us. Lists will adapt and we won't be topping the tournaments as consistently. That being said, we're still one of the top armies though.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 16:15

Oh, one thing I would like to see tweaked - Blast Pistols. It seems like they should either be a little cheaper or else have slightly longer ranges (9" would make the most sense). As it stands, they cost a point or so more than Fusion Pistols whilst being outright worse.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 17:23

As much as we all want more character options, it's not gonna happen anytime soon, so I'd rather think about possible reasonable changes, and for the most part all we can expect is pts changes.

I think a couple things on Burnage's list will get a pts increase. Dissie cannon probably should be 20pts, ravager could maybe go up by 10pts, and warriors maybe back up to 7, though I really don't want their pts to change at all. I haven't used grots at all so can't comment much on them, and reavers are good but don't think they need a change.

As for the buff candidates, I'd love to see hellions go down a point or two. I'll continue to use them regardless because I love the models, but they could go down a tad. Incubi would be fixed by being s4 base and/or d2, I don't see why our elite melee unit can't have s5 especially when wyches can get that with obsessions. Beasts and the court are in a weird spot these days, they seem alright but just outclassed by a lot of other choices. Pts decrease would help them I suppose, but I don't think I'd start using a whole bunch of them even in that case. Voidraven bomber could be a bit better, though it certainly doesn't suck, and I think dark lances are perfectly fine as is, dissies just need to be the same price.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 18:33

The fact that 3 Ravagers with an Archon works well in your meta does not mean it is overpowered, it means your meta hasn't taken the 5 minutes to sit down and think about how to counter 3 Ravagers rerolling 1s.

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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 18:44

@TeenageAngst wrote:
The fact that 3 Ravagers with an Archon works well in your meta does not mean it is overpowered, it means your meta hasn't taken the 5 minutes to sit down and think about how to counter 3 Ravagers rerolling 1s.

But we're dark eldar. They should not HAVE to think to be able to defeat us.
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 19:29

@dumpeal wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
The fact that 3 Ravagers with an Archon works well in your meta does not mean it is overpowered, it means your meta hasn't taken the 5 minutes to sit down and think about how to counter 3 Ravagers rerolling 1s.

But we're dark eldar. They should not HAVE to think to be able to defeat us.

exactly
dark eldar doing fine the first time in years? NERF THEM; NERF THEM ALL!!
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 20:30

@TeenageAngst wrote:
The fact that 3 Ravagers with an Archon works well in your meta does not mean it is overpowered, it means your meta hasn't taken the 5 minutes to sit down and think about how to counter 3 Ravagers rerolling 1s.

That 3 Ravagers with an Archon is working well in large tournaments does suggest that it may be overpowered, however. We'll have to see what happens in the London GT this weekend but the Black Heart Spearhead is already the most popular non-Battalion detachment there.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Wed May 16 2018, 20:47

@Burnage wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
The fact that 3 Ravagers with an Archon works well in your meta does not mean it is overpowered, it means your meta hasn't taken the 5 minutes to sit down and think about how to counter 3 Ravagers rerolling 1s.

That 3 Ravagers with an Archon is working well in large tournaments does suggest that it may be overpowered, however. We'll have to see what happens in the London GT this weekend but the Black Heart Spearhead is already the most popular non-Battalion detachment there.

It's the no-brainer option is why. It's no more challenging than 3 Predator tanks.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Thu May 17 2018, 00:24

Working well in large tournaments? You mean at Alamo GT, a relatively small venue, where IIRC only one of the winning two lists used it?

Stratagem recycling warlord traits are always he most popular because they are the most simple. The reroll to wounds in exchange for a relic is not outrageous by any means.

A lot of the London GT players are adding this detachment to their soup armies. The pure Drukhari lists have a lot more variety.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Thu May 17 2018, 00:29

@TeenageAngst wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
The fact that 3 Ravagers with an Archon works well in your meta does not mean it is overpowered, it means your meta hasn't taken the 5 minutes to sit down and think about how to counter 3 Ravagers rerolling 1s.

That 3 Ravagers with an Archon is working well in large tournaments does suggest that it may be overpowered, however. We'll have to see what happens in the London GT this weekend but the Black Heart Spearhead is already the most popular non-Battalion detachment there.

It's the no-brainer option is why. It's no more challenging than 3 Predator tanks.

I mean the ravager is better than the predator, it's cheaper, can move faster, can't be tied in combat due to fly and can move and shoot without penalty. Granted predators have an extra point of toughness, wounds and armor but I don't think that bridges the gap.

That being said I don't think ravagers are overpowered. They are functioning exactly as they should be right now, my guess would just be that GW will at least up the pts for dissies cannons.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Thu May 17 2018, 00:37

@withershadow wrote:
Working well in large tournaments? You mean at Alamo GT, a relatively small venue, where IIRC only one of the winning two lists used it?

Both winning lists used Black Heart Ravagers. The winner of Storm of Silence, a 60 person tournament, also used them, as did the winner of Conflict Norwich, which was only a 30 person tournament. Yes, they're all relatively small events, but as far as I know they're the largest events which have happened since the Codex's release - this weekend's London GT will give us a more significant data point to work with.

Edit: I should probably also clarify that I'm not saying "OMG Ravagers are broken and need to be nerfed hard", I'm just saying that I'm fully expecting them (including weapons) to go up by a total of 5-15 points at some point in the near future.


Last edited by Burnage on Thu May 17 2018, 00:45; edited 1 time in total
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Toffeehammer
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Thu May 17 2018, 00:38

I just hope they don't take Blasters back down to D3 damage. That was rough.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Thu May 17 2018, 00:39

Am I the only one getting flashbacks to Assback spam from way in the beginning of the edition? Except those were cheaper (even after the nerf.) And they were significantly more durable. And they had transport capacity. And they had higher strength. And they had a significantly higher fire rate. And they were a Dedicated Transport, which could fit into any list, not just be limited to a detachment slot. And their accompanying babysitter made them reroll all failed hits and wounds, instead of just 1's to either.

Just because something is good doesn't make it broken, and unless we're seeing abuses on par with the Assault Cannon spam of early edition or Dark Reapers, I'd be surprised if they nerfed Ravagers.

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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Thu May 17 2018, 01:40

I’m quite surprised that any DE player would think anything in new codex needs nerfed. All those units listed in the nerf category are good but I don’t think any of them are game-breaking. Grotesques are good, yes, but 35 ppm ain’t cheap even with a 4++/6+. There are more durable, harder hitting assault units in the game. And dissie cannons feel appropriately costed, as well. For the first time in several editions, we have a reasonably strong codex that has done well in some small-to-mid-size tournaments (can’t have that!), and people already want to nerf it. The mind boggles.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Thu May 17 2018, 02:00

Name one unit that is harder hitting and more durable than grotesques.

I’m shocked Drazhar is not on the buff list, he’s the biggest POS in the book for his points.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Thu May 17 2018, 02:07

@withershadow wrote:
I’m shocked Drazhar is not on the buff list, he’s the biggest POS in the book for his points.

I honestly forgot he exists, which says great things about how useful he is at the moment.
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: What needs tweaking?   Thu May 17 2018, 02:55

Not the sort of thing chapter approved would change but.
Drazhar fix: his aura gives incubi +1 to wound, not to hit.

His current aura does nothing for himself, little for incubi, and doesn't interact with the incubi special rule. With to wound all that changes.
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