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Crokadilla
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PostSubject: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 04:51

Greetings fellow denizens of Commorragh,

If we equip our Archon with the absolute minimum wargear he comes to 72 points. A 3 Ravager Spearhead with Dissies costs just under 450 points, and the subfaction gives us AoV, FNP on our Ravagers, Reroll 1's to Wound on our Ravagers, AND Labrynthine Cunning.

Disintigrator Cannons are literally our best way to deal with MEQ, TEQ, Monstrous Creatures, even light vehicles. Because of this, it is almost like we wanted to be trying to aura buff them even without all of the other perks that come with it.

For under 450 points, is this not just a staple in our army now? I get that we have so many different options from being 3 subfactions and having mercs, but it almost seems like we are being herded into this particular formation. Itis not that I dislike the Ravager Spearhead as it is new to 8th and is not a formation I have really used before. However, idk that it is going to be as fun/flavorful if I am herded into including it in every list I run.

Thoughts?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 06:14

Its the number 1 thing DE players take. Ravager might see a 10-15pts increase soon, that or Dis Cannons equal to Lances in points.

Its also normal to have 1-3 RWJF's with it.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 06:45

I mean yeah there's really not much to think about here, there's a reason this spearhead was the most common dark eldar detachment across all armies including dark eldar at the London GT. That being said, doesn't mean you have to take it. I don't and won't, flayed skull is the kabal that supports my playstyle and I'm committed to only using one kabal/cult/coven obsession in every list. Beauty of our codex is almost everything is at least not a bad option these days, sure BH ravager spearhead is the super competitive build but you can focus on a completely different style of army list with no BH spearhead and do perfectly fine.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 06:45

It's very nice, but honestly not that crucial. You can gain Agents of Vect via a Black Heart flyer wing, and take Flayed Skull or whatever. Their Ravagers can actually function as pretty great assassins, as they are movement 17", ignore cover, and aren't tethered to a buffing Archon. There is a tournament series battle report in the Realspace Raids subforum that used this to great advantage.

Two battalions gives us enough CPs that LabCunning is not crucial.

The question is, are you building for the top tables at Adepticon and LVO where you need to keep it 100%, or is this for smaller and/or local venues where taking the 95% is a negligible hit to your performance?
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 09:05

Into no-duplicate detatchments format is nearly a must.

Until they'll not fix Agents of Vect, this, rerolls on Ravagers and Cunning are too strong for not bringing them in lists.
Agents of Vect is totally broken AND annoying for the opponent. I can see it "one use only" errata coming.
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Aschen
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 09:26

I dont think I'd call AoV totally broken. I think its really strong, and helps shut down gimmicky armies that rely on stuff like 'appearing 9 inches in front of you, moving forward, and charging'... Its just a counter to things people rely on heavily right now...

I actually havent tried out this Black Heart Spearhead though...so I can't comment on how powerful it is... I'm still afraid to leave my Archon standing alone near flimsy vehicles lol
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 09:36

BA and Bloodletters never ever been a threat honestly. Just bring some chaff units to push them out from. This is tactic, anything that kill this is bad for the game.
And Vect, yes, it's broken. But most of it, it's ANNOYING...which is even worse in a game designing view.

I invite any DE player to swap his army with the opponent and play against this stratagem...it's horrible, seriously.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 09:44

@Cerve wrote:
BA and Bloodletters never ever been a threat honestly. Just bring some chaff units to push them out from. This is tactic, anything that kill this is bad for the game.
And Vect, yes, it's broken. But most of it, it's ANNOYING...which is even worse in a game designing view.

I invite any DE player to swap his army with the opponent and play against this stratagem...it's horrible, seriously.

Maybe GW wants people to stop relying on single stratagems to win games for them and AoV is the counter to that.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 09:49

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
BA and Bloodletters never ever been a threat honestly. Just bring some chaff units to push them out from. This is tactic, anything that kill this is bad for the game.
And Vect, yes, it's broken. But most of it, it's ANNOYING...which is even worse in a game designing view.

I invite any DE player to swap his army with the opponent and play against this stratagem...it's horrible, seriously.

Maybe GW wants people to stop relying on single stratagems to win games for them and AoV is the counter to that.

This ^

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 10:07

Nice, it is the same GW who build up armies on single stratagems? (:
Considering that these Codex are ready since years, it's pretty embarassing design some armies around stratagems, and the an army who counter them.
Stratagems is what get character to an army, in 8th. Vect is too strong.

And who speak about "a single stratagem" I guess he never played heavy on it, because it's oretty usual for me to trigger 2-3 Vects in the first game turn... "but it's 9-10 CP only for that!" yes but:
-With Cunning, considering the enemy's CP blocked with it, it's like +3 CP gained;
-I completely blocked my opponent game, and I win for Codex superiority.

I lost only once with the new Codex, and only for my mistakes. Using Vect is just embarassing for me, and annoying for my opponent.

That phrase is just something made up that anyone thought at the release of the Codex. But after some heavy playtesting, I must be honest: is unhealthy for the game.

"One use only" seems the best way to balance it.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 10:24

@Cerve wrote:
Nice, it is the same GW who build up armies on single stratagems? (

GW doesnt make armies based around 1 stratagem, tell me 1 stratagem that Tyranids, IG, GK, Admech, Necrons, or SM have that you want to build an army around? There isn't any, so far only 3 armies had a stratagem to build an army around, CSM, CWE, BA, and it was only b.c they were so strong.

Stratagems are not meant to be list building win conditions and GW is making that 100% clear with some of these beta changes, AoV stratagem and the wording on new stratagems.


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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 11:22

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Nice, it is the same GW who build up armies on single stratagems? (

GW doesnt make armies based around 1 stratagem, tell me 1 stratagem that Tyranids, IG, GK, Admech, Necrons, or SM have that you want to build an army around? There isn't any, so far only 3 armies had a stratagem to build an army around, CSM, CWE, BA, and it was only b.c they were so strong.

Stratagems are not meant to be list building win conditions and GW is making that 100% clear with some of these beta changes, AoV stratagem and the wording on new stratagems.


Still, it's too strong
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 11:52

Agents of Vect is good, but it's not too strong. Disintegrator Cannons are too cheap, however - we had arguments that they were worth taking over Dark Lances when they cost ten points more, and now they're five points less! The number of shots they have combined with the Archon and Muse also make their damage relatively consistent.

Ravagers are basically an auto-include at the moment, and the Black Heart Spearhead is the most powerful way to play them.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 12:39

@Burnage wrote:
Disintegrator Cannons are too cheap, however - we had arguments that they were worth taking over Dark Lances when they cost ten points more, and now they're five points less!

I agree. DC v DL was hotly debated prior to the codex and there was no real conclusion as they were both pretty good even with the price differential. I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase for DC in Chapter Approved this year, although hopefully not back up to 30 points!

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 12:45

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
Disintegrator Cannons are too cheap, however - we had arguments that they were worth taking over Dark Lances when they cost ten points more, and now they're five points less!

I agree. DC v DL was hotly debated prior to the codex and there was no real conclusion as they were both pretty good even with the price differential. I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase for DC in Chapter Approved this year, although hopefully not back up to 30 points!

20 points as the DL should be fine.

10 points for the Shardnet which is extremely good.

10-12 points for the Haywire Blasters which are something like free smites for Veichles+decent anti infantry fire.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 15:01

Only DE would complain about being too strong instead of opponents needing to get gud. Which they do.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 15:23

If your opponent can't make you struggle to decide on which stratagem use AoV, he plays too straightfowardly and needs to be punished for that. We can only negate 1 stratagem per turn. We don't know which stratagems he will try to pull on the full round. It's not broken. It's the player who never learned to think before rolling dice.
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 17:39

It's worth noting for the AoV that you cannot use it to prevent deployment statagems. So armies that rely on those aren't effected.
Outside of those there are very strong strats, but there most armies have more than one.
If I was running my CW list against black heart, I'd start using the powerful offensive strats early to try and force you to burn your company on AoV.

As for How many cp Cunning is going to get back, even with AoV causing opponents to get there co back and use them again, your going to get maybe 3cp total back from it unless your facing a guard cp farming list.
Back before they clarified that the autarch ability only worked on your strats I used it in a bunch of games. You get about 3 cp.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 17:56

@Cerve wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Nice, it is the same GW who build up armies on single stratagems? (

GW doesnt make armies based around 1 stratagem, tell me 1 stratagem that Tyranids, IG, GK, Admech, Necrons, or SM have that you want to build an army around? There isn't any, so far only 3 armies had a stratagem to build an army around, CSM, CWE, BA, and it was only b.c they were so strong.

Stratagems are not meant to be list building win conditions and GW is making that 100% clear with some of these beta changes, AoV stratagem and the wording on new stratagems.


Still, it's too strong

Its not tho... there are some armies you will only use it on a Re-roll CP strat b.c they dont need stratagems to win and are just solid in general (SM, IG, SoB) Tyranids have many 1-2CP stratagems they could use every turn/phases, GL trying to counter all the good ones, theyw ill Double shoot, double move, add more advancements/charge, double attack, all back and charge, etc.. when you block one they will just keep going.

Its only strong against gimmick armies and it should be, thats the point of this stratagem!

We are DE we are suppose to mess with their plans!

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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 19:22

Even blocking a reroll (or better, a chance to go in melee before you) can change the game...

Don't think me wrong: I love Agents for fluffy wise. But competitive is a must-take, and for friendly game it brokes the game. The thing that even Eldar are taking a BH spearhead (and I mean, 99% of the lists) it's a critical thing in my opinion.
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 19:41

It's 3cp.
You're giving up 3 rerolls to use it.
By using it you aren't fire and fade, lightning reflexes, ECT ECT.

If you're going to use it that much I will happily bait you into having no cp left.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 19:44

@Cerve wrote:
Even blocking a reroll (or better, a chance to go in melee before you) can change the game...

Don't think me wrong: I love Agents for fluffy wise. But competitive is a must-take, and for friendly game it brokes the game. The thing that even Eldar are taking a BH spearhead (and I mean, 99% of the lists) it's a critical thing in my opinion.

Not around here....
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 19:47

As a cwe main, 3 dissi ravangers is really good. With the point increase on reapers it's tempting as a source of long range firepower.
AoV would be a nice bonus against certain gimmicks and the occasional clutch play. Maybe used every other game.
I'd have better things to spend 3cp on.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 21:04

Agents of Vect only works if you have CP dominance. In low CP lists you're better off using them on other things. Once again, the meta is lazy and takes the obvious solution. Give the codex 3-6 months and people will figure it out and build lists around it.

Or nerf it right away because bad players think it's broken and OP.

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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Spearhead   Wed May 16 2018, 21:35

AoV isn't something that I spam every game, but in most gamea, there is a critical point that your opponent uses a strategem that he really needs to get off, that's when I use it.
That single strat has won me games, or at a minimum sealed the game.
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