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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Quins info begins   Tue May 15 2018, 14:08

@mynamelegend wrote:
Veiled Path is aggressively terrible. Running the numbers so nobody else has to.

Unmodified WS
WS 2+: 83.33%
WS 3+: 66.67%
WS 4+: 50.00%
WS 5+: 33.33%
WS 6+: 16.67%
WS with Veiled Path
WS 2+: 71.76%
WS 3+: 59.26%
WS 4+: 45.83%
WS 5+: 31.48%
WS 6+: 16.20%

Friends don't let friends run Veiled Path.

One thing that I'm wondering is whether the auto-fail trumps rerolls. For example, you roll a 1 for Veiled Path, and your opponent has a 'reroll ones' ability. Your opponent rolls a one, triggering your veiled path ability, causing the hit to automatically fail - does that mean that it automatically fails regardless of what the reroll result is, since the initial roll of 1 triggered the ability, which affects the hit?
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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: Quins info begins   Tue May 15 2018, 19:09

So far, I love the Frozen Stars and Midnight Sorrow the most.
Frozen Stars because I think Harlies should pretty much charge every turn anyway, and it will give them a 25% higher damage output. And I think Harlequin Troupes are more of a melee unit, and therefore Frozen Stars fits better than Soaring Spite.
I like Midnight Sorrow not because it's good, but because it fits the theme that I have in mind for my Harlies so well. Utter chaos, and my opponent not knowing where my murder clowns will strike next just seems too much fun to ignore. Razz

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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Quins info begins   Thu May 17 2018, 00:15

Veilec path seems cool as it functions like -1 to hit, only hurting good bs and was armies worse, while basic -1 to hit hurts low bs worse.
Or that's how it would be if you only rolled 1 d6. I have a feeling that proved a bit too powerful, so we got this nerfed version that is far too weak.
If it was roll 3d6 drop the lowest and highest it might have been alright.
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corollax
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PostSubject: Re: Quins info begins   Thu May 17 2018, 01:19

@krayd wrote:
@mynamelegend wrote:
Veiled Path is aggressively terrible. Running the numbers so nobody else has to.
<snip>

One thing that I'm wondering is whether the auto-fail trumps rerolls. For example, you roll a 1 for Veiled Path, and your opponent has a 'reroll ones' ability. Your opponent rolls a one, triggering your veiled path ability, causing the hit to automatically fail - does that mean that it automatically fails regardless of what the reroll result is, since the initial roll of 1 triggered the ability, which affects the hit?

My understanding that it's auto-fail in the same sense that a roll of 1 is auto-fail. You can reroll it, but your rerolls will fail if they hit the min(2d6) value, just like they would if you rolled a 1.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
Veilec path seems cool as it functions like -1 to hit, only hurting good bs and was armies worse, while basic -1 to hit hurts low bs worse.
Or that's how it would be if you only rolled 1 d6. I have a feeling that proved a bit too powerful, so we got this nerfed version that is far too weak.
If it was roll 3d6 drop the lowest and highest it might have been alright.
When you compare it to all the codices that get a flat -1 to be shot at, the straight 1d6 version doesn't seem too powerful at all. And if you're looking for an alternative, median-of-3d6 isn't much different than 1d6.

Here's the data if you're interested.

Statistics:
 
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Quins info begins   Thu May 17 2018, 01:55

So I started doing the math, then ran the concept again and realized I was a bit wrong about veiled path it one die..
It will cause 1/6 of all hits that would have accured to miss, regardless of ws/bs.
It's functionally looking for doubles on two dice.
So kinda functionally like the 6+++ trait. But also protecting from on hit effects and rerolling the one die is much more cp effective.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Quins info begins   Thu May 17 2018, 02:03

I feel like the Veiled Path isn't necessarily going to be good but will lead to some hilarity when you start stacking defensive buffs. A big unit with -2 to hit from Veil of Tears and Lightning-Fast Reactions, -1 to wound from the Shadowseer's aura, a 3++ save from Prismatic Blur or Isha's Weeping, a 6+++ save from Webway Dance, and losing some additional hits from Veiled Path sounds bloody frustrating to deal with.
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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: Quins info begins   Thu May 17 2018, 08:39

@Burnage wrote:
I feel like the Veiled Path isn't necessarily going to be good but will lead to some hilarity when you start stacking defensive buffs. A big unit with -2 to hit from Veil of Tears and Lightning-Fast Reactions, -1 to wound from the Shadowseer's aura, a 3++ save from Prismatic Blur or Isha's Weeping, a 6+++ save from Webway Dance, and losing some additional hits from Veiled Path sounds bloody frustrating to deal with.

That indeed sounds hilarious. But hardly less so without the Veiled Path, since you get the lowest of two dice, you'll by average most likely be looking at 1-3 and that would usually be a miss anyway. And even if you manage to be lucky and roll 2 high (4+) dice, there's still only a 1/6 chance that it's useful. That, as an alternative to getting +1 attack just doesn't seem remotely interesting.

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GreyArea
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PostSubject: Re: Quins info begins   Thu May 17 2018, 11:04

@Gelmir wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
I feel like the Veiled Path isn't necessarily going to be good but will lead to some hilarity when you start stacking defensive buffs. A big unit with -2 to hit from Veil of Tears and Lightning-Fast Reactions, -1 to wound from the Shadowseer's aura, a 3++ save from Prismatic Blur or Isha's Weeping, a 6+++ save from Webway Dance, and losing some additional hits from Veiled Path sounds bloody frustrating to deal with.

That indeed sounds hilarious. But hardly less so without the Veiled Path, since you get the lowest of two dice, you'll by average most likely be looking at 1-3 and that would usually be a miss anyway. And even if you manage to be lucky and roll 2 high (4+) dice, there's still only a 1/6 chance that it's useful. That, as an alternative to getting +1 attack just doesn't seem remotely interesting.

Agreed. Barring some specific interaction/synergy with another ability as yet unrevealed....

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Quins info begins   Thu May 17 2018, 18:17

The best part about veiled path is denying the trigger effects on 6+

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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: Quins info begins   Thu May 17 2018, 21:03

@Massaen wrote:
The best part about veiled path is denying the trigger effects on 6+

To do that, you need to roll 2 sixes, so that the lowest result is a 6, and then your opponent needs to roll a 6 for his Hit roll. That's a chance of 1/216. :/

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Quins info begins   Thu May 17 2018, 21:15

@Gelmir wrote:
So far, I love the Frozen Stars and Midnight Sorrow the most.
Frozen Stars because I think Harlies should pretty much charge every turn anyway, and it will give them a 25% higher damage output. And I think Harlequin Troupes are more of a melee unit, and therefore Frozen Stars fits better than Soaring Spite.
I like Midnight Sorrow not because it's good, but because it fits the theme that I have in mind for my Harlies so well. Utter chaos, and my opponent not knowing where my murder clowns will strike next just  seems too much fun to ignore. Razz
The 6" consolidate may actually be useful. Midnight Sorrow should really spam lots of Troupes, so you can tie enemies down in melee by surrounding one of their key models.

I still think Soaring Spite will be the most useful. Skyweaver Jetbikes with the new haywire cannons are decent support with a 22" move and 2D6 haywire shots per 2-man unit. I hope the glaives became a lot cheaper.
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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: Quins info begins   Thu May 17 2018, 21:29

@withershadow wrote:
@Gelmir wrote:
So far, I love the Frozen Stars and Midnight Sorrow the most.
Frozen Stars because I think Harlies should pretty much charge every turn anyway, and it will give them a 25% higher damage output. And I think Harlequin Troupes are more of a melee unit, and therefore Frozen Stars fits better than Soaring Spite.
I like Midnight Sorrow not because it's good, but because it fits the theme that I have in mind for my Harlies so well. Utter chaos, and my opponent not knowing where my murder clowns will strike next just  seems too much fun to ignore. Razz

The 6" consolidate may actually be useful. Midnight Sorrow should really spam lots of Troupes, so you can tie enemies down in melee by surrounding one of their key models.

I still think Soaring Spite will be the most useful.  Skyweaver Jetbikes with the new haywire cannons are decent support with a 22" move and 2D6 haywire shots per 2-man unit.  I hope the glaives became a lot cheaper.

I said I liked it not because it's good, but didn't mean it's not good. Wink It could definitely be a good Masque if used right. That's just not the reason I like it. Razz

And if I read the leaked picture right, Zephirglaives are now 6 points.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Quins info begins   Sat May 19 2018, 10:31

So apparently the only change to Neuro Disruptors is that they're now Strength 4. That's not the worst weapon in the world, but damn, 10 points for it is a bit much.
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