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 Any luck with non-obsession detachments?

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Thu May 24 2018, 19:28

@Cerve wrote:
Don't you like it? Play another army, it's simple. These are DarkEldar, they always been like this in their BG and the old Codexes were all bad writed for ignoring this thing.

This is a silly claim. The old Codexes weren't perfect, but they weren't badly written because they avoided trying to divide our army into three sort-of-cohesively-functioning parts.

Is it fluffy? Sure, but I'm not convinced that it's actually working out properly in terms of game mechanics.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Thu May 24 2018, 19:40

@Burnage wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Don't you like it? Play another army, it's simple. These are DarkEldar, they always been like this in their BG and the old Codexes were all bad writed for ignoring this thing.

This is a silly claim. The old Codexes weren't perfect, but they weren't badly written because they avoided trying to divide our army into three sort-of-cohesively-functioning parts.

Is it fluffy? Sure, but I'm not convinced that it's actually working out properly in terms of game mechanics.

To me, it's way more silly still claiming that this Codex is bad writed in all the possible posts.

It is not perfect, but is the best Codex who bring the Bg in the table in my opinion.
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Thu May 24 2018, 19:51

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Then there should have been an overall Dark Eldar set of traits like there are for stratagems and warlord traits that everyone can use.
Most armies get A (meh, trait that they get with all units available), dark eldar get B (powerful traits that they get by taking restricted detachments).
You're saying they should get A and B, so basically get B for free.

Beyond that, in most factions, a decent precentage of the army gets little to no benefit from their trait unless they build to that traits. This is basically the same as taking 1-2 subfaction detachments to get the obsession, and taking a mixed detachment that gets no obsession.
Except the part of your army that benefits gets more of a benefit because of how powerful most obsessions are compared to most faction traits.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Thu May 24 2018, 20:12

@Cerve wrote:
You're thought is too close.

Archons babysitting on Ravagers doesn't do only that. It works on first/second turn when you still have 2-3 Ravagers. But tuey tend to fall down fast, and at this point I'm user to use my Archon alone, just wandering on the map like a Solitaire. It is surprisly good in this work, as Succubus are too.

I don't take HQs to be surprised when they actually work.

@Cerve wrote:

This game is dynamic. A lot of enemies just advance on you or DS on you. It's common to get some.opponent near enough to your Babysitter Archon for a following charge, maybe backed up with other units from your army.

Yey?

@Cerve wrote:

It helps a lot on countercharges, and area denial against any low/mediu armoured unit. And even again DC and other units like these, I'm used  to throw 5 Wyches+1-2 wandering Succubu/Archons and you will be surprised for how much these guys hits together.

The key word here is 'wandering'. Well-designed HQs aren't generally found wandering around the map because they're surplus to their own army.

Nor, generally, do they sit around hoping the enemy will kindly provide them with something to do.

@Cerve wrote:

For the customization point, I'm not talking about wargear

I imagine you're not, because it basically demolishes your entire argument.

@Cerve wrote:

-Babysitting Ravagers: you can distingue a good player from a medium one from this. The last one will just sit with his Archon buffing Ravagers, and once he lose their lovely boats will find himself totally lost with his Archon. A good one knows when boosting Ravagers with him, and when advance (even leaving the boats alone for that turn). Use your models at 360'!!! He can grab objectives, doing Maelstorm, killing Scouts alone, get some casualties against any faster/DS unit (A LOT of opponents understimate his melee skills, you can soak the Overwatch with a Venom and charge Obliterators squad for example), tied em.up with his 2++ (which sometimes doesn't work but most of it it does, still a dice game), use him at a bait (he is usually the General, some people try to get him at all costs, even exposing them)...

Good lord, are we still talking about an Archon buffing Ravagers? You're not exactly showcasing much in the way of variety for the Archon's role. Or are you fixating on this because it's the only thing he can really do in terms of working with his army?

@Cerve wrote:

From the Index he still have even a blaster (but I don't buy it for him usually).
And he can boost even Razorwings/Voidravens in the first turn (sometimes even second one) if you move well your units.

I'm not sure what your point really is here.

I don't deny that the Archon can buff units. The issue is that his buff works on very few units, doesn't work from, in, or into transports (and he has no other mobility options), doesn't work on mercenaries and doesn't fit the Kabal playstyle. Given how restricted he is in terms of only being able to buff a tiny portion of the codex and then not when he or they are in transports, a reroll 1s aura is just pathetic (especially since he's not even cheap and actually went up in price in the codex).

@Cerve wrote:

Other Archons: similar to the one up there, but without the babysitting stuff. Stick him into a Raider, into a Venom w/Court, or at foot behind Talos/20Wyches/FootGrotesques, it work in all these ways and it works well. When you have to protect a key model, the 2++ becomes risky it's true...but when you're fielding 2-3 disturbing Archons around the board, that 2++ becomes a real pain in the ass for the opponent! Because your Archons becomes expendables, but they turn to be extremely tought thanks for that.

So you can put an Archon with any of 3 different units that he has absolutely no synergy with. Wow.

And you can also, once again, have them meandering around the board doing . . . something.

@Cerve wrote:

With Relics, Traits and Obsessions you can build up some heavy hitters Archons, some sniping ones, you can build them up in 3-4 different ways and you call it bad?

Yes. I absolutely call it bad.

@Cerve wrote:
I mean, who cares if you can't equip a SoulTrap/WebwayPortal/stuffs if you actually have ALL of these items for EVERY ARCHON at 0 points?

Someone who wants to maybe use regular points for character customisation, rather than using valuable CPs to replicate basic wargear?

@Cerve wrote:
They are stratagems now, it's even better because you don't have to spend points in any game for niche tools. Use what you want whenever you want.

Either your group has house-ruled it such that all stratagems cost 0CP, or else you're not even being disingenuous but outright deceitful.

@Cerve wrote:

Succubs works similar to the Archons, but theme are cheaper, faster, and can tarpit units thanks for the Shardnets.

You do realise that the relic-less Succubus sucking in combat so badly that she's relegated to tarpit duty isn't a point in her favour, right?

@Cerve wrote:
Here to: relics, traits and obsession makes them super custom, you can have heavy hitters, multiple drugs, adaptable ones, or just expendable ones.


Again, you should not need to rely on warlord traits and relics for basic character customisation.

@Cerve wrote:
These ladies are cheap. Guys seriously, if know how to bring them in melee (which you should if you play DE from years, and not only Kabals) they becomes amazing.

Only if you take them with one of the 2 relics that actually make them worth a damn in melee.

@Cerve wrote:
The thing is you're adding too many threats on your opponents

Clearly not, because you're apparently spending half your points on our overpriced HQs.

@Cerve wrote:
I lost the count about how many times my opponent tend to focus down Grots, Talos, even Wyches sometimes and lost the advantage because 1-2 Succubus masters to engage him in combat, blocking his firing units, tarpit his infantries etc. Seriously, they're little extremely cheap harass Soilitaires. You don't need to hit as a truck with them, you need to harass your opponent's firing units, objective keepers, or just add them into a bigger melee. Add 1-2 Succubus/Archons into a bigger melee and add a pretty fine amount of ap-2/-3 attacks for your side.

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'fact'.

@Cerve wrote:

And boost your Cult units around you.

You mean the one cult unit Succubi can actually hope to keep up with.

@Cerve wrote:

Just....move. Move. Move. Use your models at their maximum capacity.

What are you even talking about at this point?

@Cerve wrote:
advances with Archons, hide your Succubus on the table and if you lose one of them who cares? They are cheap enough foe not crying on them.

You're quite right, it doesn't matter if you lose one of your HQs. It doesn't matter if you lose all your HQs. Because they contribute so little to the army and are entirely surplus to your needs.

Thank you for proving exactly what I've been saying.

@Cerve wrote:

But don't play the BH Archon with 3 Ravagers only by keeping him back. Judge during the game, it's not an useless weaponless Lietenaut, it's a good, tought (2++) brawler too.

You do understand that I don't play the BH Archon with 3 Ravagers at all, right? Hell, I don't even own 3 Ravagers.

@Cerve wrote:
And forget this issue about embarking them, you don't really need it, seriously Wink

Yep. I mean, why would I want an HQ who can keep up with the rest of my army. Better for him to just sit in my deployment zone with a picnic basket or jog sweaty behind the rest of my army, all of whom had the foresight to bring vehicles.

Because apparently good HQs are defined by their ability to contribute so little to their army that it can literally take off without them and not notice the difference.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Thu May 24 2018, 20:44

I don’t understand the salt. Yes the unit selection is narrow, but the system allows you to incorporate other Eldar factions of you want more model variety. The book is by far the most characterful and potent the Dark Eldar ever had. This just seems like both sour grapes and greed.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Thu May 24 2018, 21:04

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
You're thought is too close.

Archons babysitting on Ravagers doesn't do only that. It works on first/second turn when you still have 2-3 Ravagers. But tuey tend to fall down fast, and at this point I'm user to use my Archon alone, just wandering on the map like a Solitaire. It is surprisly good in this work, as Succubus are too.

I don't take HQs to be surprised when they actually work.

@Cerve wrote:

This game is dynamic. A lot of enemies just advance on you or DS on you. It's common to get some.opponent near enough to your Babysitter Archon for a following charge, maybe backed up with other units from your army.

Yey?

@Cerve wrote:

It helps a lot on countercharges, and area denial against any low/mediu armoured unit. And even again DC and other units like these, I'm used  to throw 5 Wyches+1-2 wandering Succubu/Archons and you will be surprised for how much these guys hits together.

The key word here is 'wandering'. Well-designed HQs aren't generally found wandering around the map because they're surplus to their own army.

Nor, generally, do they sit around hoping the enemy will kindly provide them with something to do.

@Cerve wrote:

For the customization point, I'm not talking about wargear

I imagine you're not, because it basically demolishes your entire argument.

@Cerve wrote:

-Babysitting Ravagers: you can distingue a good player from a medium one from this. The last one will just sit with his Archon buffing Ravagers, and once he lose their lovely boats will find himself totally lost with his Archon. A good one knows when boosting Ravagers with him, and when advance (even leaving the boats alone for that turn). Use your models at 360'!!! He can grab objectives, doing Maelstorm, killing Scouts alone, get some casualties against any faster/DS unit (A LOT of opponents understimate his melee skills, you can soak the Overwatch with a Venom and charge Obliterators squad for example), tied em.up with his 2++ (which sometimes doesn't work but most of it it does, still a dice game), use him at a bait (he is usually the General, some people try to get him at all costs, even exposing them)...

Good lord, are we still talking about an Archon buffing Ravagers? You're not exactly showcasing much in the way of variety for the Archon's role. Or are you fixating on this because it's the only thing he can really do in terms of working with his army?

@Cerve wrote:

From the Index he still have even a blaster (but I don't buy it for him usually).
And he can boost even Razorwings/Voidravens in the first turn (sometimes even second one) if you move well your units.

I'm not sure what your point really is here.

I don't deny that the Archon can buff units. The issue is that his buff works on very few units, doesn't work from, in, or into transports (and he has no other mobility options), doesn't work on mercenaries and doesn't fit the Kabal playstyle. Given how restricted he is in terms of only being able to buff a tiny portion of the codex and then not when he or they are in transports, a reroll 1s aura is just pathetic (especially since he's not even cheap and actually went up in price in the codex).

@Cerve wrote:

Other Archons: similar to the one up there, but without the babysitting stuff. Stick him into a Raider, into a Venom w/Court, or at foot behind Talos/20Wyches/FootGrotesques, it work in all these ways and it works well. When you have to protect a key model, the 2++ becomes risky it's true...but when you're fielding 2-3 disturbing Archons around the board, that 2++ becomes a real pain in the ass for the opponent! Because your Archons becomes expendables, but they turn to be extremely tought thanks for that.

So you can put an Archon with any of 3 different units that he has absolutely no synergy with. Wow.

And you can also, once again, have them meandering around the board doing . . . something.

@Cerve wrote:

With Relics, Traits and Obsessions you can build up some heavy hitters Archons, some sniping ones, you can build them up in 3-4 different ways and you call it bad?

Yes. I absolutely call it bad.

@Cerve wrote:
I mean, who cares if you can't equip a SoulTrap/WebwayPortal/stuffs if you actually have ALL of these items for EVERY ARCHON at 0 points?

Someone who wants to maybe use regular points for character customisation, rather than using valuable CPs to replicate basic wargear?

@Cerve wrote:
They are stratagems now, it's even better because you don't have to spend points in any game for niche tools. Use what you want whenever you want.

Either your group has house-ruled it such that all stratagems cost 0CP, or else you're not even being disingenuous but outright deceitful.

@Cerve wrote:

Succubs works similar to the Archons, but theme are cheaper, faster, and can tarpit units thanks for the Shardnets.

You do realise that the relic-less Succubus sucking in combat so badly that she's relegated to tarpit duty isn't a point in her favour, right?

@Cerve wrote:
Here to: relics, traits and obsession makes them super custom, you can have heavy hitters, multiple drugs, adaptable ones, or just expendable ones.


Again, you should not need to rely on warlord traits and relics for basic character customisation.

@Cerve wrote:
These ladies are cheap. Guys seriously, if know how to bring them in melee (which you should if you play DE from years, and not only Kabals) they becomes amazing.

Only if you take them with one of the 2 relics that actually make them worth a damn in melee.

@Cerve wrote:
The thing is you're adding too many threats on your opponents

Clearly not, because you're apparently spending half your points on our overpriced HQs.

@Cerve wrote:
I lost the count about how many times my opponent tend to focus down Grots, Talos, even Wyches sometimes and lost the advantage because 1-2 Succubus masters to engage him in combat, blocking his firing units, tarpit his infantries etc. Seriously, they're little extremely cheap harass Soilitaires. You don't need to hit as a truck with them, you need to harass your opponent's firing units, objective keepers, or just add them into a bigger melee. Add 1-2 Succubus/Archons into a bigger melee and add a pretty fine amount of ap-2/-3 attacks for your side.

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'fact'.

@Cerve wrote:

And boost your Cult units around you.

You mean the one cult unit Succubi can actually hope to keep up with.

@Cerve wrote:

Just....move. Move. Move. Use your models at their maximum capacity.

What are you even talking about at this point?

@Cerve wrote:
advances with Archons, hide your Succubus on the table and if you lose one of them who cares? They are cheap enough foe not crying on them.

You're quite right, it doesn't matter if you lose one of your HQs. It doesn't matter if you lose all your HQs. Because they contribute so little to the army and are entirely surplus to your needs.

Thank you for proving exactly what I've been saying.

@Cerve wrote:

But don't play the BH Archon with 3 Ravagers only by keeping him back. Judge during the game, it's not an useless weaponless Lietenaut, it's a good, tought (2++) brawler too.

You do understand that I don't play the BH Archon with 3 Ravagers at all, right? Hell, I don't even own 3 Ravagers.

@Cerve wrote:
And forget this issue about embarking them, you don't really need it, seriously Wink

Yep. I mean, why would I want an HQ who can keep up with the rest of my army. Better for him to just sit in my deployment zone with a picnic basket or jog sweaty behind the rest of my army, all of whom had the foresight to bring vehicles.

Because apparently good HQs are defined by their ability to contribute so little to their army that it can literally take off without them and not notice the difference.


Guess you haven't understood noone of my point Smile no prob, good game
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Fri May 25 2018, 18:43

I think that the Raiding Force rule is a super cool glue that brings Kabal/Coven/Cult together in whatever permutation you like, and Alliance of Agony is a very cheap way of augmenting the abilities of our HQs to compensate for the points tax.

I'd be very let down and frustrated if the Raiding Force rule was not errataed to be playable in Matched Play, but I have the feeling that once the designers have a better sense of how their beta is going they'll apply a patch for us that doesn't count Patrols towards our detachment limit or something, and I'd be happy with that.

WHATEVER the case may be...all I'm saying is, they wrote us a codex that makes list building a lot of fun and provides a lot of opportunities, and then they issued a faq that removes a lot of that versatility. When things are tiptop and streamlined I'll feel better.
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