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 Any luck with non-obsession detachments?

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Frowny
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PostSubject: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Sun May 13 2018, 20:04

As many of you have realized, our codex has only a few troops and only a few HQ's, making taking certain detachments a bit of a struggle. I'm also really struggling to find room for an allied Eldar detachment, given that I want to include some kabal AND coven AND cult units on the DE side

Have any of you had any luck with mixed detachments. Eg. A battalion of 1 heami, 1 archon, 2x5 warriors and 1x5 wracks or any other combination thereof. It looses you an obsession on everything, but avoids the 'tax' people often see in the 2nd archon or heamonculus or whatnot.

Also, on an easier to answer note, does an Archon from Black heart unlock the AoV strategem, or do you need the entire detachment? It seems almost too good to give up from a competitive standpoint. Ditto the prophets strategem on a unit of wracks w/out the whole detachment fitting ETC.

Some units that don't really need detachments (despite being from a faction), as food for thought

Beastmasters
Wracks
WWP kabalites (Can DS into RF range if need, although the range is nice...)
Chronos

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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Sun May 13 2018, 20:59

I think the question is your focus.

If you want an elder detachment to benefit from the Craftworlds traits, what you're suggesting works just fine.

I have constructed an army with Ynarri and black heart, and don't feel that I'm missing out for not having the coven units.  

I think the black heart is nice, but not critical.   Coven I can't imagine taking if I didn't get the +1 to my invul save.

If you're wanting to mix in Harlies or CWE, you're better to have them take the place of either your coven, cult or Kabal. (and CWE have tons of options to do this). Then you can benefit from BOTH the craftworld trait, and the obsession.

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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Sun May 13 2018, 22:09

The needing coven benefit for the+1 invuln save seems based on the (possible unconscious) assumption that you are taking grots.
Grots are really good, and the prophet bonus is the exact bonus they want to make them better. Sohere is a good reason in stream there, but it might be getting you automate some reasoning that doesn't necessarily apply if you aren't going grots.
Talos don't need that bonus to be tough for their points, and if you want them as a distraction carnifex it might work against you.
Wracks get tougher with the bonus, but unless you are relying on them for objective holders it doesn't seem necessary.
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Dawnstone
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Mon May 14 2018, 09:59

I think it's not really worth it to ignore the Obsession bonuses, especially for Cult & Coven units who benefit a lot.

The easiest swap in for me is Harlequins - they generally fulfil a similar role to Cult, and so work well as a replacement detachment for them. They also benefit immensely from Kabal fire support.
Something like Harlequin Battalion + Kabal Spearhead will work nicely.

Also, a Supreme Command detachment consisting of 3 Eldar pskyers is a winner, mainly for Doom, Jinx & the smites.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Mon May 14 2018, 10:19

I don't really find any struggle into organizing the army in different detatchments. Obsessions are just too good to ignore them in my opinion.
I'm not into trying to play without them.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Mon May 14 2018, 11:49

Would any DE list you see posted on this site include 4+ DE HQ choices if they didn't HAVE to in order to gain access to units, CPs and obsessions:?:

No... no, no they certainly would not.

The tax you pay in extra DE HQ choices is worth it.
At least that seems to be what most ppl are doing.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Mon May 14 2018, 11:58

@Painjunky wrote:
Would any DE list you see posted on this site include 4+ DE HQ choices if they didn't HAVE to in order to gain access to units, CPs and obsessions:?:

No... no, no they certainly would not.

The tax you pay in extra DE HQ choices is worth it.
At least that seems to be what most ppl are doing.  

Honestly, I love our HQs. Both Archons and Succubus are extremely cheap for what they carry on. I'm playing them as little Solitaires and they still surprise me any game I play.

Yep I thought too that they were taxes, but I had to thing again about them. Succubus with shardnet is a nightmare for any infatry unit.
Archons shred any medium unit which for their cost is great. And that 2++, when you don't count on it too much, is amazing.
Haemonculi are just necessary for Taloi and Grotesques so not really a tax matter here.

Yeah I was forced to play 3,4+ HQs. But after study them, I can't play without them right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Mon May 14 2018, 11:59

Ynnari seems to be the sensible answer to mix units together. Otherwise Obsession loss seems likely too much to make up for the HQ points saving.

Perhaps a Black Heart Spearhead + Ynnari / Drukhari Batallion + Ulthwe Supreme Command or something like that could work.

That way you could arrange the Ynnari to get the various Drukhari subfactions you want in one detachment, with Soulburst instead of the standard Obsession. The Spearhead would still give you the Agents of Vect if you can't live without that, and still find a space for Craftworlds psykers.

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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Mon May 14 2018, 12:08

@Kantalla wrote:
Ynnari seems to be the sensible answer to mix units together. Otherwise Obsession loss seems likely too much to make up for the HQ points saving.

Except you can't take Covens units with them, and losing Power From Pain as well is a pretty harsh penalty.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Mon May 14 2018, 19:38

Don’t ynnari troops also not get obsec?
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Mon May 14 2018, 20:38

@Burnage wrote:
Except you can't take Covens units with them, and losing Power From Pain as well is a pretty harsh penalty.
I was thinking of gaining Soulburst as a potentially reasonable trade for Obsessions and Power from Pain, but forgot Covens and Mandrakes can't be taken. In that case, that Ynnari Detachment doesn't work for allowing all the things asked for.

|Meaver is right about losing Objective Secured too. Locally we house rule non-Codex armies gain Obsec too, but that's not an official rule.

If you don't need Agents of Vect perhaps Ynnari + Coven + Craftworlds could work.

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Fri May 18 2018, 05:05

Didn't chapter approve grant all troop units obsec?
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Fri May 18 2018, 15:42

I had fantastic luck with a mixed detachment until I lost access to Agents of Vect without bringing a Black Heart detachment as well as my Brigade.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Fri May 18 2018, 15:49

So spend ~100 points and bring a BH Patrol. Job done.

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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Fri May 18 2018, 15:59

@Count Adhemar wrote:
So spend ~100 points and bring a BH Patrol. Job done.

It's more complicated than that.

First off that's 100 points of useless Patrol detachment. The hell is that Archon gonna do all game except stare at some LoS blocking terrain?

Also it means I need to pull stuff from the Brigade which means filling those slots with something else. Realistically I'd lose something valuable like a Voidraven or a Razorwing Flock.

Finally, the rules implications means my Prophets of Flesh Wracks in the Brigade would lose access to Black Cornacopians which is their entire reason for existing, nullifying the Brigade entirely.

So yeah a single 100 point patrol is not "job done".

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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Fri May 18 2018, 16:12

You want Agents of Vect. Shockingly you have to pay for it. 100 points is an absolute steal and everyone knows it. So it's not a 'useless' patrol detachment. It's giving you something you want. You may have to give up something else that you want in exchange but that's how points systems work. And it's not like an ObjSec unit with a character to buff their shooting is utterly useless. Hell you could even go big and make it a full 20 man unit and Webway Portal them in somewhere to shoot some stuff.

As for the Prophets of Flesh thing, until and unless GW actually state that this applies to anything other than AoV then why would you assume it does? AoV is, AFAIK, unique amongst stratagems in that it requires a particular faction but the effects of the stratagem do not specify that faction anywhere on the card. It's not unreasonable to assume that the intent of GW is to apply to that specific situation and not all sub-factions.

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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Fri May 18 2018, 16:22

Well I presumed prior to the infographic that me paying for the Archon and warriors in the Brigade was enough to unlock it but of course I have to carve them out because nothing in this army is simple when it comes to list construction. Also the reasoning behind AoV assumes all chapter specific stratagems follow suit.

On topic though unless you're going for something other than obsessions running a mixed detachment holds no benefit. I like CP so I run a Brigade... or I used to. That was worth losing obsessions to me.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Fri May 18 2018, 21:48

Running a brigae makes little sense post FAQ anyway. You're better off with 2 battalions as there's fewer requirements to fill. Unless you're particularly attached to the 3 fast, elite and heavy that the brigade requires.

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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Fri May 18 2018, 22:20

@Kantalla wrote:

Perhaps a Black Heart Spearhead + Ynnari / Drukhari Batallion + Ulthwe Supreme Command or something like that could work.

I had a cringe when I read it. Like Vect would EVER help Ynnari at anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Sat May 19 2018, 02:48

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Running a brigae makes little sense post FAQ anyway. You're better off with 2 battalions as there's fewer requirements to fill. Unless you're particularly attached to the 3 fast, elite and heavy that the brigade requires.

I'm particularly attached to a lot of CP and few HQs. To get all 3 subfactions on the board I would need 6 HQs and 9 troops to get 3 battalions, or 5 HQs for the 2 battalions and a spearhead. The only way I could get away with 3 HQs like the Brigade is if I ran 3 patrols and we all know how much that bites.

Urien and a Haemonculus I could make use of. One Archon is good. A Succubus is a necessary evil but I can get her to do something I guess, so 4 HQs is my tolerable max. 2 Archons, 2 Succubi those are the problems as at that point you might as well be throwing points away. With 4 HQs I can make a single battalion and 2 specialized detachments for a whopping 7CP, compared to the brigade's 12.

Also in the brigade I can fill those annoying troop slots with cheap Kabalites, whereas I need to bring 10 man Wrack squads or useless Wyches to fill out battalions. 10 man Wrack squads are fine but pricey and only add to the agony of bringing 120 points of useless Wyches combined with the already hobbled 2 Succubi.

So once again, in order to bring the units I want with obsessions or at the very least have access to the stratagems I *need* in order to make the army work, I need to not bring a brigade and instead bring lots and lots of useless crap. After all is tallied I think the total dead weight of any given list is something like 350 points or so, and more like 450 after you account for a lack of optimization and having to spend points on wargear to make the dead weight units tolerable on the table top.

edit: Now someone did pitch me a brigade idea in my PM box and I appreciate the effort but it was an all Covens list and I need access to the entire kit and caboodle of the codex, not just one subfaction. My needs in a list are quite specific:

- A Black Heart Archon is mandatory for Labyrinthine Cunning.

- An unit of 12 Razorwing Flocks are needed as a screen and utility unit.

- Prophets of Flesh are required for 10 man units of Wracks. These with Black Cornacopians give sorely needed mobility to the Covens units.

- I have to start the game with a minimum of 10CP, preferably more, to be able to use Agents of Vect and my other stratagems.

- Wyches are needed to hold infantry in combat, but not too many.

And while not essential:

- I like to run a Voidraven Bomber in my lists as an infantry buster and anti-tank.

- Urien Rakarth is almost always worth taking over a regular Haemonculus for the points.

That right there is the holy grail of a mixed detachment list. If someone can figure out a way to get all that clumped into one 2000 point list I'm all ears.

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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Sat May 19 2018, 04:57

Look at the 1st and 2nd place Alamo GT lists. Both field a Black Heart Archon, Prophets of the Flesh, and a Wych Cult. Either one of them should, with only a small to moderate bit of modifying, be able to fill literally every one of your listed needs and wants.
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Sat May 19 2018, 05:09

@TeenageAngst wrote:
If someone can figure out a way to get all that clumped into one 2000 point list I'm all ears.

Cult of Strife Battalion with two Succubi, three units of five Wyches, a Beastmaster with twelve Razorwing Flocks.
Prophets of Flesh Battalion with a Haemonculus, Urien, and three units of ten Wracks.
Black Heart Spearhead with an Archon, three Ravagers and a Voidraven.

Hits all of your holy grail requirements. Gives you 14 Command Points to work with. Less than 1500 points.
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Sat May 19 2018, 05:21

@Burnage wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
If someone can figure out a way to get all that clumped into one 2000 point list I'm all ears.

Cult of Strife Battalion with two Succubi, three units of five Wyches, a Beastmaster with twelve Razorwing Flocks.
Prophets of Flesh Battalion with a Haemonculus, Urien, and three units of ten Wracks.
Black Heart Spearhead with an Archon, three Ravagers and a Voidraven.

Hits all of your holy grail requirements. Gives you 14 Command Points to work with. Less than 1500 points.

See, I ran that very list and it ended up not doing well against Tau of all things. The Wyches I had too many of, the Succubi were a waste of points, but the Ravagers and the Wracks did work. Razorwing Flocks ate an entire shooting phase on their own.

I didn't run Grotesques, instead opting for monster mash, so that might have had something to do with it, but really I think it was the lack of warriors and excess of Wyches. The synergy is all knocked outta whack and I don't know specifically what I could do to change it.

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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Sat May 19 2018, 05:29

I still feel the best construction for Drukhari is a strong Kabalite base, with Cult OR Coven forming the melee component. In the example list above, the Wyches and Wracks are competing for things to do.
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PostSubject: Re: Any luck with non-obsession detachments?   Sat May 19 2018, 05:39

They weren't competing for things to do, it's just that Wyches as I ran them did jack. They need more support than I gave them, which if I'd paid for it, would have cut out other important things.

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