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unclasped
Slave
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PostSubject: Transport Weapons   Fri May 11 2018, 09:43

I don't really want to get into the great "Raiders vs Venoms" debate.  I plan to use both in my list.  So the next question is how to arm them.  I know that the answers will vary and will depend on army composition/meta/etc, but I am curious what everyone's experiences have been.  
I plan to have wyches in the raiders and kabalites with blasters in the venom.  I also will have dissie ravagers and haywire scourges.

What are your preferred load-outs for our transports?
Also, how is your experience with the vehicle upgrades?  Right now, I am not sure if they are worth it.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Fri May 11 2018, 10:02

I will always, always give two splinter cannons to my Venoms. Yes, it's ten points that adds up if you're taking multiple Venoms, but it's also ten points for a 50% increase in the Venom's number of shots at eighteen inches. Especially if you're running Flayed Skull, that's absolutely worth it.
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Toffeehammer
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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Fri May 11 2018, 12:22

Double Venom Splinter Cannons are usually top of my list of luxury upgrades if I have the points left over after I've bought everything else I want but I never really see them as essential.

I always put Dark Lances on my Raiders since I almost always field a trio of Disintegrator Cannon Ravagers. I always try to get Phantasm Grenade Launchers on them too if I can.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Fri May 11 2018, 12:30

Considering that:
-Warriors shots at 12"
-Wyches needs to go in melee
-Wracks needs to go in melee

I cutted out the second Cannon on my Venoms. I have to get into 12" anyway if I'm shooting with Kabals for maximize my shooting output. You still have RapidFire2 at 24" for 0 points, the upgrade doesn't worth the +10 points in my opinion.
I mean, one Venom is 65, like six Cannons. Too much for that upgrade.
At 12" you still shooting 10 shots+Warriors. I never find those +6" usefull enough for the cost.

On Raider, I usually play Dissies. Just because I prefer them.over Lances even on Ravagers so.. (I use Haywire for anti-tank, that weapon is too strong).
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Voidhawk
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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Fri May 11 2018, 12:41

My rule has always been "keep it cheap and numerous". Since Dissies are the cheapest option I generally go with them on Raiders, and it pairs nicely with the job of the Kabal/Wyches that it's carrying to hunt infantry (I've come round to Shredders on kabalites). Then I use Lance Ravagers and Haywire scourge for my anti-tank firepower.
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Nogrim
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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Fri May 11 2018, 12:52

depends on my list, and what i have in them. if wyches i would go disintegrators due them needing to be in CC, if warriors meant to shoot from far ill stick lances on them to help handle armour.

im dont really have any coven so im not sure what i would do with them, probably disintegrators for the same reason as wyches though.

venom wise im probably going to be using poison tongue (its odd but it works with what i have model wise) so im going to stick with poison weapons and a lot of shots.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Fri May 11 2018, 14:29

@Cerve wrote:
Considering that:
-Warriors shots at 12"
-Wyches needs to go in melee
-Wracks needs to go in melee

I cutted out the second Cannon on my Venoms. I have to get into 12" anyway if I'm shooting with Kabals for maximize my shooting output. You still have RapidFire2 at 24" for 0 points, the upgrade doesn't worth the +10 points in my opinion.
I mean, one Venom is 65, like six Cannons. Too much for that upgrade.
At 12" you still shooting 10 shots+Warriors. I never find those +6" usefull enough for the cost.

On the other hand, that six inches is frequently the difference between an almost certain charge and an incredibly unlikely one. Given how fragile our transports are in close combat I find that added range worth it.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Fri May 11 2018, 14:53

@Burnage wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Considering that:
-Warriors shots at 12"
-Wyches needs to go in melee
-Wracks needs to go in melee

I cutted out the second Cannon on my Venoms. I have to get into 12" anyway if I'm shooting with Kabals for maximize my shooting output. You still have RapidFire2 at 24" for 0 points, the upgrade doesn't worth the +10 points in my opinion.
I mean, one Venom is 65, like six Cannons. Too much for that upgrade.
At 12" you still shooting 10 shots+Warriors. I never find those +6" usefull enough for the cost.

On the other hand, that six inches is frequently the difference between an almost certain charge and an incredibly unlikely one. Given how fragile our transports are in close combat I find that added range worth it.

I don't recognize myself in that situation. Anything that hit good on melee in this edition will charge you both at 12" and 18". Sure I will avoid some charge from something that move up to 6", but most of the times you will get charged anyway. 18" is nothing in this edition.

I prefer to jump in 12" and just shred my opponents. But most of it, I prefer to go as one body and deploy more Venoms than getting les of them at 18". If you're keeping it at 18" you're basically not using your embarked units. Which becomes helpless points. I prefer to shoot with Warriors too (add a Shredder in), and maximize my output killing my target.

But most of it, I normally protect my Venoms with other melee units. So I support my shooting advance with following charges.

I don't se Drukhari as long range army, apart from Ravagers.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Fri May 11 2018, 15:51

I utilize blasters on Venom squads so 18” is perfect. 18” is not nothing, not in my experience. 18” means not the entire squad can get into rapid fire range, and charges are a lot less likely. Splinter fire is not that amazing that I will endanger the whole unit to shoot 4 extra rifle shots. With two cannons you shoot 16 times at 18”, with the rifles you shoot 18 times at 12”. I know which one I prefer and 10 points is a very small price to pay.

Shredders I prefer to use en masse so there are no survivors to retaliate, they are too short ranged a weapon to just plink D6 hits on something and then hope for the best.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Fri May 11 2018, 15:56

@Cerve wrote:
I don't se Drukhari as long range army, apart from Ravagers.

I don't either, but I think we work perfectly as a mobile medium range shooting army. Dancing at 18" lines up very well with the range of a lot of our weapons and, in my experience, insulates us from quite a bit of counter-offense.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Fri May 11 2018, 15:56

@withershadow wrote:
I utilize blasters on Venom squads so 18” is perfect. 18” is not nothing, not in my experience. 18” means not the entire squad can get into rapid fire range, and charges are a lot less likely. Splinter fire is not that amazing that I will endanger the whole unit to shoot 4 extra rifle shots. With two cannons you shoot 16 times at 18”, with the rifles you shoot 18 times at 12”. I know which one I prefer and 10 points is a very small price to pay.

Shredders I prefer to use en masse so there are no survivors to retaliate, they are too short ranged a weapon to just plink D6 hits on something and then hope for the best.

It's 8 more shots+D6 of Shredders. Normaly from a FlayedSkull Venom.

It's 18 shots+D6 with no Cover Save.

And 10 points it's an HUGE price to pay! Or, it is if you field multiple Venoms. If you field 2-3 of them you can pay them.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Fri May 11 2018, 17:01

It’s not 8 more shots.

6 rifles x2 = 12
Cannon = 6
18 shots

4 rifles = 4
2 cannons = 12
16 shots

For getting two shots you are endangering the whole unit by veering very close. I don’t use Venoms for Wracks or Wyches, only Warrior and Trueborn units (occasionally for Archon), and the extra range makes it a lot easier to Gang up on elements of the opponent’s army while staying at a respectable distance.

Then again, I don’t spam the crap out of Venoms (for 4 raiders and 4 Venoms Total), at greater numbers is when the 10 points per model starts to add up.

Btw, past tense of “to cut” is still “cut”. You “cut” the cannons off all your venoms. Smile
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Sat May 12 2018, 01:31

I also prefer venoms with double cannons. I agree that it's not always the most points efficient, but I like the uniformity of purpose. It has optimal ranges and less complicated decision trees. But I run 1-3 venoms, so the cannons don't add up too much.

BTW, the "save 6 cannons, buy a 7th venom" argument is kind of disingenuous. Buying a 7th venom just because you have almost enough points lying around is a poor way to construct a list, and I think we all know that. Venoms are transports, they aren't taken for their firepower in either configuration.

Raiders I usually run a mix of both guns. I do the same with ravagers. In my long history of playing DE, I've always found we're one of the most overlooked armies. What people do know is usually the venom/trueborn spam. By running very few identical units, I've found opponents far more likely to focus on the wrong units first. I know what I need to use to win far more than they have any idea what to stop.
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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Sat May 12 2018, 02:10

I think it's good that all our transports and their various load-outs are viable and useful.  Good points have been raised for the different load-outs.  I am leaning toward dissie raiders for my wyches and double cannon venoms for my kabalites.  
Based on what I've read, I might implement a rule for myself: 1-3 venoms = double cannon, 4+ = cannon and rifles.  It seems the range is helpful, but spamming venoms might make the double cannons too expensive.

Thanks for all the input everyone!

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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Sat May 12 2018, 07:01

I always put a Dark Lance on the prow, it just looks too cool not to, and the whole "Space Pirates with Laser Harpoons!" feel appeals to me. I am putting disintegrators on the port/starboard guns of my Ravagers, for a Drukhari Leman Russ feel.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Sat May 12 2018, 20:25

@withershadow wrote:
I always put a Dark Lance on the prow, it just looks too cool not to, and the whole "Space Pirates with Laser Harpoons!" feel appeals to me.  I am putting disintegrators on the port/starboard guns of my Ravagers, for a Drukhari Leman Russ feel.

You've made me want to add actual harpoons to Raiders. xD

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PostSubject: Re: Transport Weapons   Sat May 12 2018, 23:23

For venoms, I've decided whether you want to take splinter cannons are not depends on the role of the unit the venom is transporting, and what obsession the splinter cannon has. For flayed skull and maybe poisoned tongue venoms with a blaster warrior unit, I think the extra cannon is worth it. You can hang around 18", shoot away with the blaster and cannons and you don't really need to get in 12" range since it's only 4 more poisoned shots. For wyches/wracks though that I want to get in cc and venoms that don't have benefits like flayed skull, I'd save the pts and stick with twin splinter rifles.

As for raiders, for me it comes down to I own more raiders with dark lances, but I'm working on changing that and going for a 50/50 split on dissie cannons and dark lances.

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