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 Talos Ichor Injector

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Kihrezae Morvishk
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PostSubject: Talos Ichor Injector   Mon May 07 2018, 21:00

I'm looking to model my Talos with an ichor injector, because I think it looks cool. However, every source I look up says it's a really bad weapon. They never state why it's a bad weapon, though. Could someone clarify this for me?

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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Ichor Injector   Mon May 07 2018, 21:31

Only one attack that has a chance at mortal wounds if you roll a 6+

No AP and one damage.

All this for the "bargain" price of 5 points.

Compare to the other options for that arm: Macro scalpel: Ap-2. 2 wounds. +1 STR and 1 additional attack. For 4 points.

Odds are you'll not get the mortal wounds with the ichor injector. So you'll only be wounding 1X. And then your opponent has at least a 1 in 3 chance of saving that wound.

By comparison, with the Macro scalpel your odds of wounding are better, their odds of saving are worse, and you'll do 2 wounds for the price of one.

The only time the Ichor Injector will do more wounds, is if you happen to roll a 6, and get 2 mortal wounds.

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Kihrezae Morvishk
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Ichor Injector   Mon May 07 2018, 21:44

@Silverglade wrote:
Only one attack that has a chance at mortal wounds if you roll a 6+

No AP and one damage.


It actually has -1AP now, but I get your point. I don't like it, but it seems like I need to swallow my pride and ditch the injector for the sake of having everything be WYSIWYG. Maybe I'll take a macro-scalpel and chain-flails.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Ichor Injector   Mon May 07 2018, 21:55

Talos.
Chain Flails
Macro Scalpel
two haywire Blasters

Best loadout, and just so happens to be the least expensive.

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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Ichor Injector   Mon May 07 2018, 21:58

@Kihrezae Morvishk wrote:
@Silverglade wrote:
Only one attack that has a chance at mortal wounds if you roll a 6+

No AP and one damage.


It actually has -1AP now, but I get your point. I don't like it, but it seems like I need to swallow my pride and ditch the injector for the sake of having everything be WYSIWYG. Maybe I'll take a macro-scalpel and chain-flails.

Missed that change in the FAQ. (could be because I had already written off the ichor injector)

I agree with your disappointment. I loved it in 7th ed. And just love the look of the weapon. Been toying with how to "tweak" the look of it to have it count as a macro scalpel.
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Kihrezae Morvishk
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Ichor Injector   Mon May 07 2018, 22:40

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Talos.
Chain Flails
Macro Scalpel
two haywire Blasters

Best loadout, and just so happens to be the least expensive.

I was thinking heat lances instead of haywire blasters. They're more expensive, but better for general can opening. The ideal scenario would be sniping off an enemy character using an esoteric kill, delivered from afar then charging the unit of infantry they were supposed to be buffing.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Ichor Injector   Mon May 07 2018, 23:02

I don'r really like ChainFlails. Wanna something vs mobs? Double Liquefire. Yes it's expensive but extremely valuable to me. Great overwatch, and still retreat and fire.

Lique+Macro+Haywire
2xMacro+Haywire

Are my two preferred choices. Flails are something like 6 wounds with ap-, I hate when even a 5+ turns in ,just 4 wounds in
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Ichor Injector   Tue May 08 2018, 00:11

Liquifiers are way too expensive for their crappy S3. I find they most often disappoint. Any specific success stories? I don't find too many foolhearty opponents that want to engage a Talos in melee, especially if it has flamers. Razz

I also prefer the extra scalpel attack over the flails, but I am not averse to throwing one in a unit of 3.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Ichor Injector   Tue May 08 2018, 02:04

@withershadow wrote:


I also prefer the extra scalpel attack over the flails, but I am not averse to throwing one in a unit of 3.

The flails are hands down better against anything with an invul save (custodies, demons) anything with a pretty crappy armor save (guard, kabalites, wyches, orks, etc ) and the re-roll helps against high toughness units. Giving them a scalpel AND the flails seems to be worth the 1 attack tax it costs from equipping them with double flails.

If your list has tons of anti infantry, then yes, I think double scalpel would be the way to go, but if you are looking for a balance, one of each.

Just my opinion.


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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Ichor Injector   Tue May 08 2018, 08:32

Liquifiers are 2D6 autohits attacks. Against T4-5 is like 3-4 wounds, not bad at all for me. They are expensive because your 3 Talos are going to do damages without charging (at 7"+D6+9" range).
Talos are great against medium-heavy targets but 30+ mob units can tied them up pretty easely. And normaly these units have both some kind of save/fnp, so you're struggling with the flails anyway. Liquifiers costs 22 points because they are strong! Just try them, open up a lot of tactics turning a melee machine beast into a melee and chaff/mob meatgrinder beasts. 3 of them can melt down any unit from veichles, to big guys, to big mobs.
It's a bit expesive (not so much anyway) but turns them into a complete, well rounded unit.

My concerns about flails is that ap-. 5+ save plus any fnp-ish save (Pox, Catalysis, any psychic power save, other Wyches, etc) are going to tied up those Talos pretty easy. Of course you can play protecting them with other units, which is good (that was my second preferred set: 2 Macroscalpel), but with Liquiefier they are now free to act alone. Which is something to consider too.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Ichor Injector   Tue May 08 2018, 14:35

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@withershadow wrote:


I also prefer the extra scalpel attack over the flails, but I am not averse to throwing one in a unit of 3.

The flails are hands down better against anything with an invul save (custodies, demons) anything with a pretty crappy armor save (guard, kabalites, wyches, orks, etc ) and the re-roll helps against high toughness units.  Giving them a scalpel AND the flails seems to be worth the 1 attack tax it costs from equipping them with double flails.

If your list has tons of anti infantry, then yes, I think double scalpel would be the way to go, but if you are looking for a balance, one of each.

Just my opinion.

I find this the opposite of reality. 1-wound infanty demons, maybe, but anything tougher and Custodes have multiple wounds, so the flail falls very flat.
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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Ichor Injector   Wed May 09 2018, 03:02

There is a separate thread where we compared the flails for the extra scalpel. In general the extra scalpel wins out in terms of damage output (I did the math, but I don't recall if we factored in invul saves or not)

HOWEVER

Someone posted about the psychological factor to your opponent about the volume of attacks and your Talos being a distraction carnifex. Obviously hard to consider that, but I believe that argument has merit.

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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Ichor Injector   Wed May 09 2018, 03:17

It depends on the difference between the invuln and the armor save.
The multiple damage and the double attacks are equal vs things with multiple wounds, and the rerolling wounds is better than the extra strength until T 7.
But against single wound basically anything the flail is better.
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Ichor Injector   Thu May 10 2018, 05:39

On the Ichor Injector, the damage output against 1 wound targets is better if their save is a 3+ or better or has an invulnerable save. In all other cases, dual scalpels is better.

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