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Crokadilla
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PostSubject: Best Relics   Mon May 07 2018, 18:37

Greetings fellow denizens of Commorragh.

Out of all of our new relics, which do you guys think are the best and the worst and why?

Some of them also seem to have niche uses that are only useful in specific matchups, such as the Helm of Spite. Just how useful are these relics and under what scenarios should I take them?

Others are obvious build-arounds, such as Traitor's Embrace or Djin Blade, allowing us to experiment with a suicide Succubus or Beat-stick Archon. Have any of you tested these or similar relic-based strategies and how successful were they?

One relic that I specifically find interesting is the Animus Vitae. It only has a 6 inch range but that +1 PFP can stack with things like Kabal of the Black Heart Obsession and Architects of Pain Strategem, allowing us to get Eager to Flay right away and potentially even get extra -Ld on some early turns. For most competitive lists I see this not working but with Dark Creed and a Hemlock Wraithfighter Air Wing Detachment, it would be possible to drop some serious Ld bombs across their army. Has anyone come up with a use or combo for with this?

Finally, how useful is Prizes of the Dark City? For 1 CP I think it is probably worth it since most of these seem fairly good, but for 3 CP? Unless you are running like 2 Battallions and have a bunch of spare CP I think i would rather save them for Screaming Jets, Agents of Vect and Eviscerating Flybys.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Mon May 07 2018, 19:06

I love, love my djinn blade, I think I'd find it difficult to ever not take it. Even have a specially converted up famed savagery archon I made to use the djinn blade. I only have 4 games under my belt with the codex so far, but he's already killed 2 space marine captains and wiped out an impressive amount of +3 save infantry.

As far as melee weapons go, the triptych whip and the blood glaive are also pretty sweet. As I often run red grief I try to run the glaive as much as possible as 1 damage on the normal glaive sucks so much, bumping it up to d3 is way better, and it's nice to reach s6 without needing the strength drug.

As far as the various defensive items go, I wouldn't say any are bad but I'm not particularly interested. I'd rather have the cool offensive oriented items. Nightmare doll/master regenesist might be a cool combination though for tanky prophets of flesh heamoncolus. Gets a nice +4 invul and FNP save, plus regening wounds.

Pistols are generally cool, if I played poisoned tongue I'd probably use their pistol.

Living muse is of course a fan favorite, personally I don't use it but I see why it's so handy.

I haven't looked into the 3 coven artifacts too much because I'm usually taking djinn blade/blood glaive, but they generally seem cool. I'd probably lean towards vexator mask, in an assault heavy list that seems really handy.

I don't like the animus vitae at all. There's a lot of ifs ands or buts to make it work out, yes there's potential synergy but compare it to the other relics and it really falls short.

I often use prizes of the dark city for the extra relic, easy choice since relics make our characters so much better. 3 cp for 3 relics though, eh that's too pricey unless I was using a list that had something like 15+ cp.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Mon May 07 2018, 19:26

Djinn blade is nice, but as flayed skull it is a hard decision between that and Obsidian Veil. Maybe Obsidian Veil on warlord, and Djinn blade on the secondary? For what it's worth, the Eternal Hatred Djinn blade Archon will always make a mess of the Famed Savagery one, but the latter is more characterful.

Our relics are almost too good, lol, we want one on every character and we can't have it.

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Dawnstone
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Mon May 07 2018, 20:07

I'd say our Relics are pretty amazing overall. We have:
- Great weapon relics; Djinn Blade, Blood Glaive, Flensing Blade and Triptych Whip are all great. The three pistol relics aren't bad too as far as pistol relics go.
- Great utility relics: Vexator Mask and Writ of the Living Muse stand out to me.
- Good to decent defensive relics: Nightmare Doll is a winner, while Armor of Misery and Obsidian Veil aren't bad.

You're going to want two of these in every game I'd say. The 1CP is well worth it. 3CP for two extras is pushing it, but I can see that being worth it if you're taking something like Djinn Blade + Living muse + Blood Glaive.


There are losers though. Animus Vitae is way too situational and at absolute best is gonna get you +1 to hit in cc for units with 6", just on turn 2. Phial Bouquet is too random to be reliable. Traitors Embrace is extremely niche as 9 times out of 10 a good opponent will shoot or smite your Succubus off the table rather than take the D6 mortals.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Mon May 07 2018, 21:53

Vexator mask. First and foremost.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Mon May 07 2018, 22:07

@withershadow wrote:
Djinn blade is nice, but as flayed skull it is a hard decision between that and Obsidian Veil.  Maybe Obsidian Veil on warlord, and Djinn blade on the secondary?  For what it's worth, the Eternal Hatred Djinn blade Archon will always make a mess of the Famed Savagery one, but the latter is more characterful.

Our relics are almost too good, lol, we want one on every character and we can't have it.


For me it's an easy choice, always comes down to offense vs defense and I'd rather have more offense. Don't need a +4 invul as badly if my djinn blade warlord can just slaughter everything before they can attack. Also having an awesome sword just fits the attitude of my famed savagery archon better.

That being said obsidian veil ain't bad, I wouldn't say someone is making the wrong choice by taking the veil, just not my preference.

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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Mon May 07 2018, 22:23

Vexator Mask mandatory. Everything else is secondary.
Djinn Blade is well-loved for a reason.
Writ of the Living Muse is solid, but my personal belief is that it'll become less popular with time.
If you're bringing Cults, make sure to either bring the Blood Glaive if you're going Red Grief, or the Triptych Whip if you're going Strife (Triptych just goes so well with Blood Dancer).
The serious dud relics are...

The Animus Vitae (are you kidding me with this thing), Obsidian Veil (murdering stuff should be our priority), Phial Bouquet (random, minor, pointless), Spirit Sting (you didn't take Prophets), and Flensing Blade (you didn't take Prophets).
The Armour of Misery is NOT a dud, because unlike with the Obsidian Veil you can use that 3+ save in lieu of your Shadowfield if the enemy throws a bunch of minor attacks your way.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Mon May 07 2018, 23:48

@mynamelegend wrote:
Vexator Mask mandatory. Everything else is secondary.
Djinn Blade is well-loved for a reason.
Writ of the Living Muse is solid, but my personal belief is that it'll become less popular with time.
If you're bringing Cults, make sure to either bring the Blood Glaive if you're going Red Grief, or the Triptych Whip if you're going Strife (Triptych just goes so well with Blood Dancer).
The serious dud relics are...

The Animus Vitae (are you kidding me with this thing), Obsidian Veil (murdering stuff should be our priority), Phial Bouquet (random, minor, pointless), Spirit Sting (you didn't take Prophets), and Flensing Blade (you didn't take Prophets).
The Armour of Misery is NOT a dud, because unlike with the Obsidian Veil you can use that 3+ save in lieu of your Shadowfield if the enemy throws a bunch of minor attacks your way.

I agree. But as a side note I want to mention that the Triptych Whip is better with Precision Strikes.
Also, one should not underestimated the prolonged effect of the Shadowfield due to the -1 from the Armour of Misery.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Mon May 07 2018, 23:49

These decisions are a lot easier if you're able to use the pre-game stratagem as written, and not have to pre-select your stuff.

The Writ I believe is still very useful. The spearhead Black Heart Archon can't buff anything else in the army, and you don't want to throw him into melee willy nilly since he is also your LabCunning Archon (which also means he can't just grab a blaster and tool around in a venom or raider). While the Ravagers can leave him far behind, the Archon can move 8" + a re-rollable advance, so on average he's only 2" or so slower than the Ravagers he's buffing. With a 6" aura, he should still keep them in range unless it's a very impassable terrain-dense table. And once the enemy is cleared out a bit and you shoot your Ravagers out there to assassinate characters and whatnot, this is also the perfect time to throw the Archon out there too for mop-up operations. The Writ also helps his own melee, so he's better than the average Archon.
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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Tue May 08 2018, 00:12

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Vexator mask. First and foremost.

Hum if the ennemy have strong CC unit and if you have srong CC unit yourself yes but if not its nearly useless. Their is no point to striking first with 5 cabalite warrior
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Tue May 08 2018, 00:56

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:
Vexator mask. First and foremost.

Hum if the ennemy have strong CC unit and if you have srong CC unit yourself yes but if not its nearly useless. Their is no point to striking first with 5 cabalite warrior

Being able to ignore Overwatch entirely is great if you want to get into melee. It lets you easily mitigate stuff like flamers.

Even without the "force a unit to strike last" rule, it's a solid relic.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Tue May 08 2018, 01:59

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:
Vexator mask. First and foremost.

Hum if the ennemy have strong CC unit and if you have srong CC unit yourself yes but if not its nearly useless. Their is no point to striking first with 5 cabalite warrior
If they don't have HTH they have shooting. Vexator stops both.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Tue May 08 2018, 02:09

How often are you charging with 5 Kabalites? I mean, if you have a Coven or Cult detachment, Vexator mask all day. For a pure shooty Kabal? Probably not.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Tue May 08 2018, 02:15

@withershadow wrote:
How often are you charging with 5 Kabalites? I mean, if you have a Coven or Cult detachment, Vexator mask all day. For a pure shooty Kabal? Probably not.

Well, if you don't have a Coven HQ you can't take the Mask at all.
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Tue May 08 2018, 03:05

You do need something that you worry about killing you in melee, will be significantly weakened at minimum by your attacking, won't already be attacking after your models (you didn't charge), and ends up within 6" of the relic bearer at the start of the fight phase (hard to guarantee if they moved and charged).

I suppose that's way more common than them using a psykic power with 18".
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Tue May 08 2018, 15:03

Well sure, if you're taking Coven, you will be bringing a strong melee component (grots and/or talos), so the mask is definitely worth inclusion.

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
I suppose that's way more common than them using a psykic power with 18".
24".

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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Tue May 08 2018, 15:13

Yeah i'm not saying the mask is a bad inclusion , its very strong. But i wouldnt call it a must take
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Tue May 08 2018, 15:53

Yeah definetly depends on your army list, if you're assault heavy yeah definitely try and fit in a haemonculus with the mask, if not then it's something you can pass up on.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Tue May 08 2018, 16:36

I'd probably rank them along these lines:

Great
- Vexator Mask (Preventing overwatch is useful - especially since many armies have flamers, strategies to improve overwatch and other such. Can also mess with combat initiative, which could come in handy. Just a nice utility item.)
- Djin Blade (Extra attacks and AP on an already nice weapon.)
- Blood Glaive (Makes the Succubus into an actual melee character.)
- Soul Seeker (I rate this higher than our other pistols because being able to snipe characters from behind LoS-blocking terrain is a rare ability indeed. It also has a better range.)

Good
- Writ of the Living Muse (I'm not a huge fan of this item - partially because it has the same problems as the Archon's standard aura and partially because I'm not a fan of the tactic it's used with, so it's quite possible that I'm rating it lower than I should. Either way, rerolls are never unwelcome.)
- Obsidian Veil (Nice defensive item for an Archon. Personally I favour this over the Armour of Misery, but that's just me. )
- Armour of Misery (Another nice defensive item, especially in melee . . . which is a little weird given that Obsidian Rose have access to the weapons with the longest range. Razz )
- Flensing Blade (An okay weapon, but I don't think it's significantly better than the Electrocorrosive Whip - especially compared to weapons like the Djin Blade or Blood Glaive).
- Tryptych Whip (Another decent weapon, but I don't rate it as highly as the Blood Glaive because S6 is far harder to come by in our army than poison).
- Parasite's Kiss (A nice little pistol, but there are usually more useful options. Would be nice if there was a way to combine it with the Armour of Misery or Obsidian Veil for a more durable Archon. As it is, Soul Thirst is probably better for regenerating wounds. Might be nice if you want regeneration on an Archon with Labyrinthine Cunning. Could be nice on a Haemonculus if you're allowed to take it.)
- Spirit Sting (Same problem as Parasite's Kiss in that it's a nice weapon but there are usually better options. Worth noting, though, that Haemonculi have far worse non-artefact ranged weapons, so it could be seen as worthwhile for that reason alone.)

Decent/Niche
- Helm of Spite (Allows us to try and deny psychic powers, but with just a single deny attempt and no bonus to the roll, it's really not great at its job. Maybe causing perils on a successful deny is worth it but I remain unconvinced.)
- Nightmare Doll (The thing is, most of the time a Haemonculus is going to be untouchable anyway due to the Character rule, and if he's exposed then this is unlikely to be enough to save him. Maybe it'll help in melee, but I think you'll generally have better choices.)
- Traitor's Embrace (Turning your Succubus into a bomb is certainly an amusing premise, but I don't think it makes for a great strategy. Especially when this comes at the expense of giving her a decent melee weapon.)

Poor
- The Phial Bouquet (It would be decent, though still not great, if you at least got to choose the extra drug, but getting one at random is terrible.)
- Animus Vitae (Our codex is apparently contractually-obligated to have abysmal grenade weapon in every edition.)

(Note: This is just how I currently see the items - I might well mess around with their ratings as I get more games in.)

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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Tue May 08 2018, 17:15

@Soulless Samurai wrote:

- Armour of Misery (Another nice defensive item, especially in melee . . . which is a little weird given that Obsidian Rose have access to the weapons with the longest range. Razz )

Well the Obsidian Rose warlord trait make their archon more dangerous in melee so it make sense their relic is defensive
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Tue May 08 2018, 17:20

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:

- Armour of Misery (Another nice defensive item, especially in melee . . . which is a little weird given that Obsidian Rose have access to the weapons with the longest range. Razz )

Well the Obsidian Rose warlord trait make their archon more dangerous in melee so it make sense their relic is defensive

Unless I'm mistaken, though, it also makes them more dangerous at range - since their Blasters also benefit from the +1 damage.

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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Tue May 08 2018, 17:25

Yes but i hate blaster on Archon, but it work with blast pistol also
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Tue May 08 2018, 19:38

D6 dm one shot doesn't get that much increase in output from +1 d.
That said I think the obsidian rose trait is worse than rerolling wounds in most cases..
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Fri May 11 2018, 01:32

Okay so on the Vexator mask, I'm getting a feel of best case analysis. (rant incomming)

For them swinging last to matter, they had to have been swinging before you otherwise. So it's really good if they charged you.
So went after your melee units with their melee units, knowing you had that artifact, and ended their charge within 6" of the bearer. (mask chooses at the start of the fight phase so they can pile in and not be effected.) Why as the opponent am I making this decision?
What if you charged? Then it doesn't matter because you swung first. "it prevents counter attack", but so does attacking with that the unit facing them first among your chargers.

Preventing overwatch is nice, but having played with banshees and archons with banshees maskes, move 7" models don't get the best benefit out of it.
You have to charge with the hq first, and make the charge. If they make the charge and the follow up unit fails, they're now very exposed. So getting the most out of it requires you making 'safe' charges. And on 7" non flier, that means you popped out of a transport.
If you're charging into a bunch of flamers it's a big boost, but otherwise it's just kinda nice. But why did you take your transport full of grots into that unit with the flamers? And what if you just charged with the raider which would probably tank the overwatch?

I could be wrong. If someone could point me to some battle reports where it was used I'd appreciate it.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Best Relics   Fri May 11 2018, 01:35

Well, if your Haemonculus is parked way in the back of the unit, it's very easy to be outside of the 6" radius. To use the vexator mask successfully you need to be hugging your grots a bit closer.
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