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 Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ

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Cavalier
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PostSubject: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Sat May 05 2018, 11:40



Hey guys so the latest episode is up. Our audio issues and website issues are straightened out so you can get it from the libysn or directly from our FB feed. We lead off with some discussion on the big FAQ, some debate on the limbo Corsairs find themselves in before diving into the Wych Cults and there amazing rebirth in 8th edition. We all looked forward to this episode so hope you did too. Enjoy!

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Sat May 05 2018, 15:11

What episode number is part 3? O.o
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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Sun May 06 2018, 05:04

Episode 46 is part 3 as episode 45 is part 2 and episode 44 part 1 - it's just that it is not documented all that well, I'm assuming due to a certain sleep deprived host in the show. In any case, all's there, all's well.

Overall a very positive episode, as there's little to be negative about in this codex. I'm definitely feeling that same "falling in love" as I did way back in 2011 when I started these evil sadistic raiders - and boy, do my paintjobs of older models show it. I really just want to repaint them all, but it will have to wait as I paint up the unpainted models first. In any case, I'm back with the Dark Kin big time.

You guys going on a monthly schedule moving forward?

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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Sun May 06 2018, 13:02

@Siticus the Ancient wrote:
Episode 46 is part 3 as episode 45 is part 2 and episode 44 part 1 - it's just that it is not documented all that well, I'm assuming due to a certain sleep deprived host in the show. In any case, all's there, all's well.

Overall a very positive episode, as there's little to be negative about in this codex. I'm definitely feeling that same "falling in love" as I did way back in 2011 when I started these evil sadistic raiders - and boy, do my paintjobs of older models show it. I really just want to repaint them all, but it will have to wait as I paint up the unpainted models first. In any case, I'm back with the Dark Kin big time.

You guys going on a monthly schedule moving forward?

We are releasing our Harlequins codex review on Saturday the 12th, after which we will be going back to a monthly release. I wish I had the time to do two episodes per month, just can't pull it with two young Trueborn Razz

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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Sun May 06 2018, 13:26

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
We are releasing our Harlequins codex review on Saturday the 12th, after which we will be going back to a monthly release. I wish I had the time to do two episodes per month, just can't pull it with two young Trueborn Razz

A review of the codex on the day it goes on preorder? The shadowseers must be very generous with their visions of the future. Can't wait!

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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Sun May 06 2018, 23:44

@Siticus the Ancient- Glad you are pumped about your Drukhari Siticus I think we are all beyond stoked about the army once again, myself especially. I wouldn't worry about your models, I've always remembered them and they absolutley killer. But at the same time I understand wanting things to look their best. My stuff on the other hand really did need to be updated. My stuff was looking BAD but now I'm all inspired to repaint everything. Its been great.

Glad you are looking forward to the Harlie dex review. Its a good fun episode, hope you enjoy it!

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Mon May 07 2018, 21:07

Good episode, thanks guys!

One note on the Red Grief reroll charges - although it’s natural to think of it as only being useful in the first turn, due to power from pain catching up, it’s also a solid all game buff for your Raiders. Reroll charges with them will surely help you tank some overwatch, and prevent the embarrassing “charge to absorb overwatch, oops, didn’t make it in, got shot for nothing” moments Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Mon May 07 2018, 23:48

I'm curious about the Strength vs attack bonus discussion. I typically run Strife as I like Lelith, but the bonus to strength looks like it would improve combat for Wyches quite a bit more than a bonus attack. If for no other reason than being active the entire game, rather than just when charging or being charged.

If Wyches have an ability to keep things locked in combat, it seems reasonable that they would want to kill things during the second turn. With Strife, they lose the bonus attack in the following combat rounds.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Tue May 08 2018, 02:57

So, trying to run all the numbers for wyches gets a bit tricky - simply due to their customization and options.

So, I decided to run the numbers on them as a 10 girl squad with no upgrades, vs SM. Obviously these numbers will change with wych weapons etc.



At some point I will break this all down further - but my general thoughts are - if you want to go after chaff, then str drug on Strife wyches are best. If you want to do damage, then doubled attack drug on grief wyches are the way to go.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Tue May 08 2018, 06:43

You mean cursed blade, not red grief?

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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Tue May 08 2018, 16:26

Really enjoyed the last few episodes guys. Keep up the good work!!
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Stark Raving Sane
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Tue May 08 2018, 22:31

Great episode.

I hope you air the Corsairs interview episode. Even if a lot of the advice is invalidated by the new FAQ, it'll still be interesting to listen to. Just maybe record a short intro advising listeners about the FAQ issue.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Wed May 09 2018, 02:15

@Stark Raving Sane wrote:
Great episode.

I hope you air the Corsairs interview episode. Even if a lot of the advice is invalidated by the new FAQ, it'll still be interesting to listen to. Just maybe record a short intro advising listeners about the FAQ issue.

We plan to just redo it. Still plenty to talk about. Most stylish army, but absolutely no love from FW for them.

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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Thu May 10 2018, 03:05

I was listening to this episode on the way home from work and your discussion of Wyches locking up Tau commanders and Land Raiders got me really excited!

Unfortunately when I got home and checked the codex, I saw that Wyches can only lock up units with the INFANTRY key word, which Land Raiders and Tau Commanders do not have.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Thu May 10 2018, 15:41

Impaler will save your Lelith if she ever has to fight a character.
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Mon May 14 2018, 22:19

@BlacklightZero wrote:
Unfortunately when I got home and checked the codex, I saw that Wyches can only lock up units with the INFANTRY key word, which Land Raiders and Tau Commanders do not have.
In our (at least my) defense, I did clarify that also. Though I do think there is solid benefit to at least locking up Landraiders with Wyches occasionally depending what else is around, a round of non shooting Land Raider is a round of not needing to worry about killing the Land Raider, which though not as funny as tangling it up with nets, is at least tactically useful Very Happy

@withershadow wrote:
Impaler will save your Lelith if she ever has to fight a character.
Do you have a particular character in mind? I'll admit I tend to think the AP-4 will be, overall, more useful in killing characters than 2 damage will be since most characters that would threaten Lelith in combat have better armor saves than invulnerable savesor armor and no invulnerable. There's probably some specific niche of, like, Chapter Masters with a 3+ 4++ that might slip into the spot where the Impaler becomes an advantage, but I think that's a narrow window to justify the -1 attack for, no? Naturally I tend to run a Succubus and Blood Glaive regardless, which is the best of both worlds, but for Lelith I assuredly favor the double dagger.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Mon May 14 2018, 23:18

It seems like a bunch of combat characters have a 4++, so in those instances I could see the Impaler coming out on top. But the knives are great against Lieutenants, guard support, other non-combat characters.
I've started running Lelith near a Tryptch Whip Succubus. The Succubus goes after the combat characters while Lelith takes out support characters. (Not overly fluffy for the Succubus to be the warlord instead of Lelith, but it works well on field).
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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Tue May 15 2018, 00:17

@Myrvn wrote:
It seems like a bunch of combat characters have a 4++, so in those instances I could see the Impaler coming out on top. But the knives are great against Lieutenants, guard support, other non-combat characters.
To a degree, but it's more than just the 4++, for the Impaler to win you also need an armor save that is otherwise not hindering the Impaler, because otherwise the daggers start creeping out ahead again.
Like, if someone is a 2+ 4++ then the knives are going to do better to inflict damage.
Likewise, if they have less than a 4++, like a 5++ it also skews to the daggers methinks.

Should probably really do the maths on this one...

Lelith is 4 attacks (5 with double daggers) hitting on a 2+ with re-rolls.

Impaler = 3.8 hits
Daggers = 4.85 hits

So, against T3 and T4 (I didn't do re-rolls here, I suspect the shift would tend to favor the double knives because they have more hits but I wanted to do the numbers to see vs. mobs too - maybe I'll add those in depending on the results);

Impaler = T3 - 1.9 wounds, T4 - 1.26 wounds (with re-rolls 2.85/2.10 )
Daggers = T3 - 2.43 wounds, T4 - 1.61 wounds (with re-rolls 3.64/2.69 )

If Opponent has 2+, 4++

Impaler = T3 - .63 get through (1.2 wounds), T4 - .42 get through (.84 wounds)
Daggers = T3 - 1.21 wounds, T4 - .805 wounds

If Opponent has 3+, 4++

Impaler = T3 - .95 (1.9 wounds), T4 - .63 (1.26 wounds) (with re-rolls 1.42 (2.84)/1.05 (2.1) )
Daggers = T3 - 1.21 wounds, T4 - .805 wounds (with re-rolls 1.82/1.35 )

If Opponent has 3+ no invuln

Impaler = T3 - .63 get through (1.2 wounds), T4 - .42 get through (.84 wounds)
Daggers = T3 - 2.43 wounds, T4 - 1.61 wounds

=========================================

So actually looks like the Impaler does just about as theory well over time as the knives do against 2+, 4++ which I was not thinking would be the case (though, these numbers are skewed if you're attacking models with only one wound, in which case knives are better, natch)
The knives do about 16% less damage when the opponent has a 3+ or less and an invulnerable equal to or only one point worse than the base armor save.
The knives hands down blow the Impaler out of the water versus anything with an armor save and no invulnerable (though you're likely to use the single knife then regardless)
Wen back and added in Character re-rolls on damage rolls to...meh effect, it does benefit the daggers more, but by a fairly slim margin.

It's closer than I thought it was, so it's not as silly as a buy as I initially thought, though I think the knife does remain generally superior and more mathematically sound (as the overall damage with the Impaler can be a bit misleading for actual reliable damage dealt)

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PostSubject: Re: Episode 47: Wych Cults and the Big FAQ    Tue May 15 2018, 00:26

Thanks for the write up. I did a napkin level review before with rerolls and came out with the Impaler being the better option. Not by a lot, but enough. I wouldn't argue anyone running the Impaler, but I modeled mine with knives during the repaint process. Doing the math just made me reassess which targets I should use for each character.

Also of note, i used +1S (Lelith quasi drugs) and the+1A from Obsession. The extra attack really helps the Impaler. Using a median instead of an average it makes quite a bit of difference. With the number of wounds that models have and the variability in d6 damage rolls, I have found the median to be more telling of actual combat results.
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