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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: Beast Pack Uses   Fri May 04 2018, 20:01

I thought I’d revisit the purpose and feasibility of Beastpacks after the new codex. I think they’re a flavourful addition to a Wych cult and I wanted to get other people’s opinions about how good they are relative to other options in the codex.

1) Clawed Fiends
For just under 35 points I think these guys have some really tough competition when compared to Grotesques (they lack the invulnerable save and the capability to become T6), but with a Beastmaster around your hitting on 4s and rerolling hits with a S5 Ap-1 D2 weapon profile. They get 5 attacks a model and 6 of their wounded. They move 10 inches. These sound really awesome !!!

Do you run these in large units? Or individual units running around? I see th advantage in keeping them seperate as you don’t have to worry about their terrible leadership but I think 5 of them walking up the board with a beast master could realistically get into combat by turn two (20” + 3D6”) and kill a unit of primaries marines. The D2 is nice to have and I think this is more feasible than using Hellions which die very quickly.

2) Khymera
I’m not sure if I’m reading this right but you can get 10 Khymera for 50pts (10 pts for each pair), which makes these guys insanely cheap, especially since they get 3 S4 attacks a model that hit on 3s. It’s a T4 model with a 5+ invulnerable save, again these are amazing!

I think these guys obviously should be used in bulk just because they’re so cheap. Do you think they have a place in a Wych cult list? They kinda do the same thing as Wyches.

3) Flocks
Not really a big fan of the flocks but theyre good tar pits and now that they hit better with -1AP I think they could feasibly put a dent into a tactical squad although I haven’t done the math. I like the Khymera and Fiends better because they can at least do something about tanks which is the major struggle in Wych cult lists, but these are good.

How do use your Beast pack and why do you include the models that you do? If you don’t use one, why? I get that they were neutered hard for matched play, so would you use them at all? Are they feasible in any way now?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Fri May 04 2018, 20:06

Khymerae are still 10 points a model, so they're not cheaper than Wyches.

I'm really struggling to see the point of Beasts at the moment. They're outclassed by other things in the Codex and not benefiting from Obsessions or Power From Pain is brutal.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Fri May 04 2018, 20:20

They cost too much or they would serve well enough as screens.
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Gimmers
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Fri May 04 2018, 20:58

They're one way to prevent yourself getting charged first turn. And bubble wrapping.
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Tzelok
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Fri May 04 2018, 22:09

Yea like a few others have said I find they have no place in my lists since the codex, they are outclassed in every way by the other options we have

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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Fri May 04 2018, 22:37

Clawed Fiends get their jobs done better by Grots/Talos and even Dissies. I'm not sure about the math and points efficiency of Khymerae now, but in Index they were pretty high up there on the Toughness 3 killing list. Razorwings are cheap screens and area denial. Any tying up you want done goes to Reavers. If you want pure screening you're probably better off with more Kabalites though.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Fri May 04 2018, 22:40

Flocks are so good they're dumb.

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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Fri May 04 2018, 23:00

I don't like any of them :-/ Beastmaster still overcosted, Clawed Fiends are lesser Grotesques, Khymeraes are something similar to CursedBlade Wyches (but worse), and I can't understand Flocks right now.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Fri May 04 2018, 23:19

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Flocks are so good they're dumb.

I'd be curious to hear why you think this, because on paper they look like a worse version of Reavers to me. Their only strengths seem to be more wounds and dealing slightly more damage when you're attacking something with T8 or more.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Sat May 05 2018, 00:38

@Gimmers wrote:
They're one way to prevent yourself getting charged first turn. And bubble wrapping.
Which is no longer really relevant with the beta deep strike rules. So their one potential use is gone.

And even the Razorwing flocks are too slow to keep up with the transports and jetbikes to plug holes to prevent stuff from deep striking behind them.

Yeah, Beastmaster and Beasts are sadly total trash in this book. But hey, at least our core stuff is good.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Sat May 05 2018, 00:44

Razorwing Flocks give us access to a wall of 3 point wounds that can stretch half way across the table and you're telling me beast units are total trash? Do you even play this army?

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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Sat May 05 2018, 03:37

Filling out fast attack slots for cheap in a brigade?
Scourges are very good, but they aren't cheap, and a kabal brigade would have plenty of slots for the weapons they can bring.
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Otasolgryn
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Sat May 05 2018, 03:58

TeenageAngst, your view of the topic would be more interesting to discuss if you would write in a proper tone. As you come across now, that doesnt seem very interesting.

Im sure there are plenty of us here who would like to hear how you have benn successful in using them, but only if you can write it in a mature tone.
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Sat May 05 2018, 07:32

You must be new here.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Sat May 05 2018, 12:07

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
Filling out fast attack slots for cheap in a brigade?
Scourges are very good, but they aren't cheap, and a kabal brigade would have plenty of slots for the weapons they can bring.

You can't use Beasts to fill up detachment slots any more, unfortunately.

I think what I keep stumbling on when considering using Razorwings as a screen is that they only have T2 and a 7+ save. Yes, Kabalites are more expensive per wound, but aside from that they can cover more ground for the same points, are mostly tougher to kill, have a ranged attack, fill out slots in detachments that grant a lot of CP, benefit from Obsessions, and can secure objectives more easily.

When Kabalites and Flocks were the same price it was very clearly the case that Flocks were better. Now that each Kabalite is literally half the price of a Flock then I think they make for the better screen.
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Sat May 05 2018, 12:49

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Razorwing Flocks give us access to a wall of 3 point wounds that can stretch half way across the table and you're telling me beast units are total trash? Do you even play this army?

Hey hey, don't need to be salty with Flocks. You don't really need them for this work.
You can do the same with other units (which still do even other things, you don't need to pay only for this).
And you still need to buy a Beastmasters for them (so they're not 3 points wounds).


Seems to me that you never played this army :-/
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Sat May 05 2018, 12:54

@Burnage wrote:
@hexxenwyrd wrote:
Filling out fast attack slots for cheap in a brigade?
Scourges are very good, but they aren't cheap, and a kabal brigade would have plenty of slots for the weapons they can bring.

You can't use Beasts to fill up detachment slots any more, unfortunately.

I think what I keep stumbling on when considering using Razorwings as a screen is that they only have T2 and a 7+ save. Yes, Kabalites are more expensive per wound, but aside from that they can cover more ground for the same points, are mostly tougher to kill, have a ranged attack, fill out slots in detachments that grant a lot of CP, benefit from Obsessions, and can secure objectives more easily.

When Kabalites and Flocks were the same price it was very clearly the case that Flocks were better. Now that each Kabalite is literally half the price of a Flock then I think they make for the better screen.

This.
Or Wyches.
Or Khymeraes.
Or simply move well your transports (Venoms are great at the flanks of your army).
Or Razorwing (the flyers)
Etc.

The thing is you don't have to buy something for screening with DE. You can just use anything you're already deploy, for screening Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Sat May 05 2018, 14:14

@mynamelegend wrote:
You must be new here.

Haha

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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Sat May 05 2018, 15:52

I'll do a proper write up later. Lemme just say flocks are so good I put Cult units in my lists specifically to have access to them. The amount of real estate they can clog up for the points cannot be argued once demonstrated but it is hard to prove in mathhammer because it involves movement and tactical flexibility.

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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Sat May 05 2018, 16:30

I agree with that. I'm just saying that DE doesn't need chaff units like them in my view of the army
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Sat May 05 2018, 20:27

I was really disappointed to read that they dont fill out FA slots. I guess they could be useful if your using a Cult MSU heavy army, and already have all the FA slots filled in both your Cult Battalions.

Thats the only real use that I can see for them at this time.

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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Sun May 06 2018, 17:52

@TeenageAngst wrote:
I'll do a proper write up later. Lemme just say flocks are so good I put Cult units in my lists specifically to have access to them. The amount of real estate they can clog up for the points cannot be argued once demonstrated but it is hard to prove in mathhammer because it involves movement and tactical flexibility.

This.


@withershadow wrote:
And even the Razorwing flocks are too slow to keep up with the transports and jetbikes to plug holes to prevent stuff from deep striking behind them.  

If that's what you're bubble wrapping then you're doing it wrong. You wrap the archon on foot who is using his aura on nearby ravagers.

Beasts are more of a utility unit - like reavers.

Look at this battle report to see the razorwing wall used to great effect: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/05/01/tournament-battle-report-4-white-scars-vs-dark-eldar/

A really crap unit was used to dictate the course of the game in the DE player's favor.
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Sun May 06 2018, 18:05

My Ravagers don’t sit in one place. The flocks can’t keep up with them either. That battle report doesn’t use the Codex, so is irrelevant. The guy at the end  basically says, “I didn’t realize Razorwings flocks die when you shoot at them... maybe I should have shot my boltguns”. Thanks for the link, though, love the paint job on that flyer.


TA’s assessment is always questionable, given that he doesn’t use obsessions. Of course they compare more favorably when you throw away your special rules. He also bases way too much on elementary mathhammer. Color me unconvinced.
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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Mon May 07 2018, 02:37

The main use I have for birds is zone denial. Even though the deep strike rules have changed, most people still need to run a screen. Birds are the perfect screen, able to eat charges and mortal wounds effectively, and even with a Beastmaster they come in under 200 points for a fully supported unit and character. To me they're the perfect mortal wound screen. They cover a vast amount of real estate too, and if you space them properly you can easily get over 3 feet of coverage out of them. Unlike most screens, they also possess both fly and a 12" movement speed meaning you can jump over anything you don't want to engage or swoop over stuff to haul even more units into the melee. Alternatively, and this has broken a few opponents for me already, you can deep strike them in with a Webway Portal and bog down a back line. This large footprint combined with a long movement compared to most screens means you can hook multiple things into combat together even if they're nowhere near each other.

This holding things in combat strategy works extremely well for me because I run Covens heavy, meaning anything that the birds catch is prey for my Talos and Grotesques. They're the opposite of the rest of my army, fast and flimsy instead of hard and slow, and because of this they compensate for the very things my Covens units are bad against and vice versa. Birds are happiest fighting anything that would rather be fighting tanks or monsters. It's hard to explain without showing.

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PostSubject: Re: Beast Pack Uses   Mon May 07 2018, 04:56

For a grot bomb I can definitely see their use. This is difficult to achieve with an obsession-focused list, since you’re having to bring all three subfactions. I can see why the new list building frustrates you so.
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