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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 11:07

@Siticus the Ancient wrote:
Not running transports can work and more power to you for running such lists and trying new things.  But you are tossing away a large strength of the army in favour of a temporary mathematical gain that very well might change with the next FAQ or Chapter Approved.

On the flip side, we're probably looking at a good six months before any points changes happen now... but I'd still bet good money that Kabalites, Grotesques and maybe Wracks will see a points increase. Kabalites were already outstandingly good for Eldar troops when they were 7 points each and didn't have access to Obsessions.

One thing that also strikes me about this topic is that TeenageAngst has said in other threads that he doesn't use Obsessions. In that case, transports definitely are going to feel like more of a tax; not having Flayed Skull's buffs or the Black Heart 6+++ would absolutely reduce their effectiveness.
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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 11:50

@Rodi Sikni wrote:
i think that is the inherent problem of be a pseudo horde army: we have cheap troops but the units doesn't has the necessary size.

the thing is that our vehicles isn't so expensive, a dark lance raider is cheaper than a tactical squad with lasser, with more T, more wounds, more movility and with invulnerable salvation. The real question is  how many wyches you need in an army to be a melee army and if the tax of the transports compensates

Well to be far tho, Tac squads are hot trash and we shouldnt use them as an example for anything.

I personally cant wait for a new SM codex, even tho i dont play SM, they really messed up that book.

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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 12:35

It's not impossible that a foot list could be a solution to a particular meta. But I don't see it as a dominant option overall, or at least I'm waiting to be convinced.

The spelling of the title is a bit controversial too.

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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 12:53

I made a list with no transports and was very happy with it. Sadly, most tournaments around here use ITC Champions missions, where mobility is a very huge factor in winning. Depending on the tournament scenarios, I agree 100% with TA that foot deldar may be better than gunboats.

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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 13:44

Reavers and Grots/Talos spam Could work really well.

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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 15:20

I'm wondering if it has to be an all or nothing option.
Take enough 4-6 transports to move some of your infantry around to where they are needed, but also take some foot sloggings to add more bodies and hold the objectives in your zone.

With obsidian rose especially, it seems like your warriors can do a decent job from your deployment zone.
I was personally thinking of getting 2 five man's in venoms, and a twenty man for my son's for my first battalion.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 15:28

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
I'm wondering if it has to be an all or nothing option.
Take enough 4-6 transports to move some of your infantry around to where they are needed, but also take some foot sloggings to add more bodies and hold the objectives in your zone.

The thing is, by doing this you counter one of the main benefits of running an all-infantry list - which is that you make certain weapons ineffective against you.

If you're only running infantry, then Lascannons, Missiles etc. are stuck wasting their d6 damage on 6pt Warriors or ~20pt Jetbikes.

If you have 4-6 transports in your list, then you provide those weapons with easy targets.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 16:29

Unless you're not running any Covens units then anti-tank will still have valid targets to shoot at. The difference is you will be able to afford the losses. By removing 3 Raiders and switching some units around in my Brigade I was able to add a Talos, a Chronos, swapped a unit of 5 Mandrakes for 5 more Grotesques, swapped a unit of Warriors for a unit of Wyches with shardnets, and handed out a little wargear. Sure, those extra units might die to the anti-tank fire, in which case you're in the exact same boat as if you'd brought Raiders without those extra units and the Raiders were the things destroyed. The difference is that if they are *not* killed, they are going to be a hell of a lot more useful on the board than a transport.

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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 17:45

I don't see trying to take advantage of this by being a skew list being all that effective.
As was pointed out, you need to skew so hard to take advantage of it that you restricting your list badly.
Second, the skew only really makes full lascannon/bright lances bad. Auto cannons, battle cannons, and such will still do work against your infantry. Worse missiles and such have alternate firing modes for hoards.
And venoms are already non ideal targets for lascannons, with their invuln and t5.

If you're skewing that hard, it feels like you're just making a bad guard list. Because what are you're ways of supporting those troops outside of an archon aura? How do you deal with moral checks if you're running units of 10+. How do you deal with the armies who can do your skew but harder, like guard?
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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 19:20

I tried a 1650 points list mass foot Drukhari, it´s rougly:
2 Archons (one with blaster)

6x
10 dudes with 2 blasters and a lance

3x
5 scourges with 4 shredders

3x
5 mandrakes

3x
dissie ravager

I´m not that sure if that can be really effective. Neutral
I somehow expected.....more bodies.
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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 20:02

You have 3 ravager in your foot list so .....
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 20:05

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
You have 3 ravager in your foot list so .....

The idea of a Foot list is no Transports, not "every thing must be infantry"

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 20:09

Well, what other heavy support choice kabal have?

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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 20:14

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
You have 3 ravager in your foot list so .....

The idea of a Foot list is no Transports, not "every thing must be infantry"

Ok, got it wrong then, but thats the reason you dont have thats much people anyway
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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 20:17

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
You have 3 ravager in your foot list so .....

The idea of a Foot list is no Transports, not "every thing must be infantry"

Problem is, at that point a lot of the arguments fall apart. Haha! He has no raiders to shoot, so instead must target my ravagers and razorwings! Haha... oh wait.
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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 20:17

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
You have 3 ravager in your foot list so .....

The idea of a Foot list is no Transports, not "every thing must be infantry"

Ok, got it wrong then, but thats the reason you dont have thats much people anyway

One ravager equals about 10 of those dudes with equipment. Roughly...

Hmm.
Maybe it's better to design it as two battalions.

Edit:


Two battalions: 1500 points
Three Archons
2x blaster

Drazar

10 Incubbi

6x
10 dudes with lance and dual blaster

3x
5 scourges with shredder


Last edited by CptMetal on Thu May 03 2018, 20:30; edited 2 times in total
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 20:22

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Rodi Sikni wrote:
i think that is the inherent problem of be a pseudo horde army: we have cheap troops but the units doesn't has the necessary size.

the thing is that our vehicles isn't so expensive, a dark lance raider is cheaper than a tactical squad with lasser, with more T, more wounds, more movility and with invulnerable salvation. The real question is  how many wyches you need in an army to be a melee army and if the tax of the transports compensates

Well to be far tho, Tac squads are hot trash and we shouldnt use them as an example for anything.

I personally cant wait for a new SM codex, even tho i dont play SM, they really messed up that book.

tac squads are fine if you compare them to company veterans
16 pts per, but if you pay 18 pts you get a primaris with a better boltgun and 2 wounds
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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Thu May 03 2018, 22:24

@withershadow wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
You have 3 ravager in your foot list so .....

The idea of a Foot list is no Transports, not "every thing must be infantry"

Problem is, at that point a lot of the arguments fall apart.  Haha!  He has no raiders to shoot, so instead must target my ravagers and razorwings! Haha... oh wait.

That's my thinking too.
Frankly, I see a lot of merit in a mass Kabalite list when taking an Obsidian Rose detachment. Kabalites are dirt cheap and the extra range is massive (most of all for special wargear).

However, I see an Obsidian Rose detachment only as a complimentary force to something like a Cult or Coven batallion.

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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Fri May 04 2018, 06:59

Since seeeing this thread yesterday I've been kicking around the idea of an obsidian rose detachment with a whole lot of dark light squads, 10x kabalites with 2blasters and a dark lance.

114 points for 3dark light weapons that can stationary fire 24"or moving and fire 32" with only one guy having the negative. It is cheaper than a ravager, has a similar survivability (arguable in both ways). Way more survivable than scourges. And is very cheap and dangerous to tanks.

Ada support to raiders/ravagers and the like it could be very effective.

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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Fri May 04 2018, 12:00

What about something like this:

Obsidian Rose Battalion
Archon w/ Huskblade, Blaster, PGL - 96
Archon w/ Agoniser, Blaster, PGL - 94
10 Kabalite Warriors w/ 2x Blaster - 94
10 Kabalite Warriors w/ 2x Blaster - 94
10 Kabalite Warriors w/ 2x Blaster - 94
10 Kabalite Warriors w/ 2x Blaster - 94
10 Kabalite Warriors w/ 2x Shredder - 76
10 Kabalite Warriors w/ 2x Shredder - 76
5 Mandrakes - 80
5 Mandrakes - 80
5 Mandrakes - 80
5 Scourges w/ 4x Blaster - 128
5 Scourges w/ 4x Haywire - 92
5 Scourges w/ 4x Haywire - 92

Red Grief Outrider

Succubus w/ Glaive, Pistol - 50
3 Reavers w/ Grav Talon - 60
3 Reavers w/ Grav Talon - 60
3 Reavers w/ Grav Talon - 60

1500pts (9CP)

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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Fri May 04 2018, 12:02

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
What about something like this:

Obsidian Rose Battalion
Archon w/ Huskblade, Blaster, PGL - 96
Archon w/ Agoniser, Blaster, PGL - 94
10 Kabalite Warriors w/ 2x Blaster - 94
10 Kabalite Warriors w/ 2x Blaster - 94
10 Kabalite Warriors w/ 2x Blaster - 94
10 Kabalite Warriors w/ 2x Blaster - 94
10 Kabalite Warriors w/ 2x Shredder - 76
10 Kabalite Warriors w/ 2x Shredder - 76
5 Mandrakes - 80
5 Mandrakes - 80
5 Mandrakes - 80
5 Scourges w/ 4x Blaster - 128
5 Scourges w/ 4x Haywire - 92
5 Scourges w/ 4x Haywire - 92

Red Grief Outrider

Succubus w/ Glaive, Pistol - 50
3 Reavers w/ Grav Talon - 60
3 Reavers w/ Grav Talon - 60
3 Reavers w/ Grav Talon - 60

1500pts (9CP)

Seems good but i would go for 3 unit of 20 warrior personnaly, to make a full use of obsidian rose stratageme
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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Fri May 04 2018, 12:59

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
Seems good but i would go for 3 unit of 20 warrior personnaly, to make a full use of obsidian rose stratageme

I prefer smaller squads so that I can spread out more as necessary, and also have some squads (namely the Shredder ones) act as buffers against assault units.

The Obsidian Rose stratagem is a nice option to have, but it's not something I'd really want to rely on or build by army around, if you see what I mean.

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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Fri May 04 2018, 16:53

Maybe I misunderstood, but it seems like your original post takes a couple of examples, and from there you extrapolate that you can drop transports entirely? That's a bit unfair.

Question 1 - Blasterborn can also potentially shoot Turn 1. And turn 3, as they're more likely to stay alive, as you can't take more than 3 of the same data sheet so your redundancy of multiple scourge units can only take you so far. In this case I agree, I'd take the Scourge over Blasterborn anyway, even if it was a direct choice between the two. But there are advantages. You also get the additional efficient shooting from the Venoms, but that's not specific to this example.

Question 2 - The one Raider of Wyches probably isn't your only Raider of Wyches. So yeah, they'll pop 1, but two more are headed their way too. If you choose to footslog, you've gotta footslog multiples as well. And since you probably have Ravagers as well, putting them in Raiders makes the opponent choose between popping Raiders and popping Ravagers. Plus, your Raiders can soak any nasty Overwatch and then go tie something shooty up so your wyches can't be blasted next turn.

Overall? Venoms are a necessity. Durable, well-priced volume of fire is the crap.

If you drop Transports entirely, you're stuck trying to horde it. And frankly, we don't have the tools to horde as well as other armies, so you'll get crushed against them. High level lists also have the efficiency built in to kill those hordes, which are better hordes than we have the capacity to be.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, and you're just arguing a couple specific cases instead of Transports overall. I footslog Grots too, and prefer Blaster scourge, but it's pretty crazy to blow that up to dropping transports entirely.

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PostSubject: Re: Controvercial opinion time   Sat May 05 2018, 21:19

Very interesting topic. I dont think Im convinced, but you do raise some good points. The only thing missing (as others have pointed out) is Board Control.

Venomspam brings Board Control through:
Mobility
Durability (for the points)
Can split in 2 (unit disembarks)
OK damage output (with warriors inside, for the points)
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