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 Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?

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Pay the 300pts for 5CP or not?
Definitely, yes, a total of 6CP isn't enough
30%
 30% [ 11 ]
Depends on the list
49%
 49% [ 18 ]
Nope, I'd rather add more damage
21%
 21% [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 37
 

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Tue May 01 2018, 16:00

Imagine, if you would, you have a total of 6CP in your nicely rounded 1700 points list.  Would you pay 300pts (of basically very little) just to get an extra 5CP?  Or would you just boost your list with more damage?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Tue May 01 2018, 16:23

I'd probably try to adjust my other detachments to make them into battalions for the extra CP.

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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Tue May 01 2018, 16:47

It heavily depends on what the rest of my list already has and the obsessions. If I have enough firepower in those 1700 pts and it all ticks like a clock? Sure, 300 points can be spent on a cheapo brigade for screening duty or other such nonsense. If not, better fill out the weaknesses that I have, because no amount of command points will matter when I'm out of heavy hitters and left only with chaff.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Tue May 01 2018, 18:03

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'd probably try to adjust my other detachments to make them into battalions for the extra CP.

It wouldn't be any cheaper in this instance, I don't have any troops at all and it won't fit into any of my other detachments either.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Tue May 01 2018, 18:10

It depends on the list, but right now I would 100% not be happy with only 6 Command Points at 2000 points. Three Kabalite Warrior squads alongside two Archons are cheap and effective enough that I'd almost always want to squeeze them in.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Wed May 02 2018, 08:51

I would never pay 300 points just for 5 command points.
I would never play with just 6 command points in 1700 points.

Most of my lists start with 300 points for 3 troops, 2 hq and 5 command points, so if that is the question then yes I will always do that.


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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Wed May 02 2018, 10:14

I would have to see that 1700 points. Only 6CPs and "nicely rounded" seems like a contradiction.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Wed May 02 2018, 10:17

What would the 300pts actually contain?

Also, can we see the rest of the list?

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Wed May 02 2018, 13:41

Yeah it's hard to assess in a vacuum whether it's good to just always spend 300pts for 5 more cp, really comes down to what's already in the list and whether you need more firepower or not.

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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Wed May 02 2018, 18:52

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'd probably try to adjust my other detachments to make them into battalions for the extra CP.
this.
It's not the same as the IG for imperials, where it's stupidly cheap, provides psykers for smite and denies, and lots of extra bodies for an elite force.

Turning one of your existing detachments into a battalion is going to cost less, because you'll only need 1 hq and the 3x5 man troops.

The better use for a kabal battalion being cheap looks like that at 600pts you can get something pretty effective and 5cp.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Wed May 02 2018, 19:21

I assume the core list was built under the OP’s flawed assumption that Trueborn are superior to Kabalites.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Wed May 02 2018, 19:57

@withershadow wrote:
I assume the core list was built under the OP’s flawed assumption that Trueborn are superior to Kabalites.

Shots fired. Wink


Would you care to elaborate?

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Wed May 02 2018, 20:14

Just basing this on previous postings from the OP, where he concluded that the entire troop section of the codex is garbage, and Trueborn are the only way to play.

I am exaggerating a bit here, but that is basically how you end up with a 1700 point list with only 6 CPs and zero troop units.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Wed May 02 2018, 21:00

@withershadow wrote:
Just basing this on previous postings from the OP, where he concluded that the entire troop section of the codex is garbage, and Trueborn are the only way to play.  

I am exaggerating a bit here, but that is basically how you end up with a 1700 point list with only 6 CPs and zero troop units.

I get what you mean, but I was more looking for a counter-argument as to why Kabalites are the way to go.

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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Wed May 02 2018, 21:52

Both have their place. Kabalites effectively have half the special and heavy weapons of Trueborn while being half the cost. Is it’s a matter of concentration of firepower.

2x 10 Kabalites, 4 blasters, 2 dark lances = 228 points (188 without lances if 4x5)
7x Trueborn, 4 blasters, 2 dark lances = 185
5x Trueborn, 4 blasters = 123
10x Kabalites, 2 blasters, Lance = 114

So Trueborn pack the same heavy firepower for cheaper, but lose the volume of fire and survivability of having 4 times the bodies. This can be advantageous because you also need fewer transports, but our transports are not a tax (unlike most other dedicated transports), and multiple units can engage different targets from different angles.

Finally, and most relevantly to this discussion, Kabalites easily fill out battalions for command points. Objective secured also comes up.

If I had to guess, these 300 points are:
Archon
Archon
3x Warriors with blasters

So the answer is an unequivocal yes, whatever the remaining list is, adding this detachment would help. Just make sure you have some transports for the warriors.
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Wed May 02 2018, 23:50

If they are already running 2 kabal vanguard detachments for the trueborn, they don't even need the archons. Collapse the two vanguard's, add the 3 units of warriors. 3 extra cp, and enough points left in the 300 to get a raider and venom to s move them around.
Or just get 3 naked warrior squads, 90 pts for plus 3 could..
Not seeing a good reason to go for double kabal vanguard over battalion.
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Wed May 02 2018, 23:59

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
If they are already running 2 kabal vanguard detachments for the trueborn, they don't even need the archons. Collapse the two vanguard's, add the 3 units of warriors. 3 extra cp, and enough points left in the 300 to get a raider and venom to s move them around.
Or just get 3 naked warrior squads, 90 pts for plus 3 could..
Not seeing a good reason to go for double kabal vanguard over battalion.

Yeah, that's what's confusing me. I'm curious to see this list because I'm trying to work out how it could be arranged such that you'd only have 6CP at 1700pts but would seemingly need an entirely separate Battalion, rather than being able to rearrange existing units into one.

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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Thu May 03 2018, 00:11

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
If they are already running 2 kabal vanguard detachments for the trueborn, they don't even need the archons. Collapse the two vanguard's, add the 3 units of warriors. 3 extra cp, and enough points left in the 300 to get a raider and venom to s move them around.
Or just get 3 naked warrior squads, 90 pts for plus 3 could..
Not seeing a good reason to go for double kabal vanguard over battalion.

Agreed, in which case the Archon points probably buy a couple of transports as you've said.

This is why I am assuming the underlying reason is the flawed assumption that Kabalites are crap and only Trueborn are worth it.
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Tue May 08 2018, 16:06

Sorry for the massive delay in replying to you guys and yes, you have mostly guessed correctly Very Happy  Here is my list I'm currently playing with.  I dislike poison, so have tried to substitute with Dissies.


++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [24 PL, 405pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Kabal of the Black Heart

+ Flyer +

Razorwing Jetfighter [8 PL, 135pts]: Twin splinter rifle
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

Razorwing Jetfighter [8 PL, 135pts]: Twin splinter rifle
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

Razorwing Jetfighter [8 PL, 135pts]: Twin splinter rifle
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [54 PL, 941pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Kabal of the Black Heart

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 76pts]: Huskblade, Labyrinthine Cunning, Splinter pistol, Warlord (Archon), Writ of the Living Muse

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [5 PL, 80pts]: Disintegrator cannon

Raider [5 PL, 80pts]: Disintegrator cannon

Raider [5 PL, 80pts]: Disintegrator cannon

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [35 PL, 653pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Kabal of the Obsidian Rose

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 92pts]: Blaster, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Venom Blade

+ Elites +

Kabalite Trueborn (Index) [5 PL, 123pts]
. Dracon: Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster

Kabalite Trueborn (Index) [5 PL, 123pts]
. Dracon: Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster

Kabalite Trueborn (Index) [5 PL, 123pts]
. Dracon: Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster

Mandrakes [8 PL, 96pts]: 5x Mandrake, Nightfiend

Mandrakes [8 PL, 96pts]: 5x Mandrake, Nightfiend

++ Total: [113 PL, 1999pts] ++


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And here is the list with the extra CP


++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [24 PL, 435pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Kabal of the Black Heart

+ Flyer +

Razorwing Jetfighter [8 PL, 145pts]: Splinter Cannon
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

Razorwing Jetfighter [8 PL, 145pts]: Splinter Cannon
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

Razorwing Jetfighter [8 PL, 145pts]: Splinter Cannon
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [47 PL, 816pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Kabal of the Black Heart

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 76pts]: Huskblade, Labyrinthine Cunning, Splinter pistol, Warlord (Archon), Writ of the Living Muse

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [5 PL, 80pts]: Disintegrator cannon

Raider [5 PL, 80pts]: Disintegrator cannon

Raider [5 PL, 80pts]: Disintegrator cannon

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [19 PL, 458pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Kabal of the Obsidian Rose

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 89pts]: Blaster, Venom Blade

+ Elites +

Kabalite Trueborn (Index) [5 PL, 123pts]
. Dracon: Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster

Kabalite Trueborn (Index) [5 PL, 123pts]
. Dracon: Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster

Kabalite Trueborn (Index) [5 PL, 123pts]
. Dracon: Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [13 PL, 290pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

+ HQ +

Warlock [2 PL, 55pts]: 1. Conceal/Reveal, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

Warlock [2 PL, 55pts]: 1. Conceal/Reveal, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

+ Troops +

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

++ Total: [103 PL, 1999pts] ++


Last edited by Hellstrom on Tue May 08 2018, 16:45; edited 1 time in total
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Tue May 08 2018, 16:09

Well, you could get +3CP for as little as 90pts by combining the two Obsidian Rose detachments into a Battalion and adding 3 Warrior Squads.

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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Tue May 08 2018, 16:32

You'll be running into potential issues with three detachment limits in that second list. I'd seriously recommend switching out at least one of your Trueborn squads in exchange for up to twenty (!) Kabalites.

Poison honestly isn't that bad now we've got access to rerolls (and if you're happy to dip into Craftworlds, take a Farseer to get it up to that delicious 75% wounding rate from Doom).
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Tue May 08 2018, 16:45

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Well, you could get +3CP for as little as 90pts by combining the two Obsidian Rose detachments into a Battalion and adding 3 Warrior Squads.

There are 2 lists, I think you missed the break Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Tue May 08 2018, 16:46

@Hellstrom wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Well, you could get +3CP for as little as 90pts by combining the two Obsidian Rose detachments into a Battalion and adding 3 Warrior Squads.

There are 2 lists, I think you missed the break Very Happy

Ah, I did. Sorry about that.

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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Mon May 14 2018, 05:08

So problems with those lists.
Rules wise: More than 3 ravangers. So not legal in organized play.
Too many detachments in the second list. Not legal.

Stratagy wise:
You have no real way to take objectives. Most missions use scoring during the game, and you are not well set up to do that.
Basically you are depending on tabling to win.
It gets worse for tournaments as many use vp totals for position, so a tabling victory with no vp will not serve you well.

You have terrible volume of fire. The dissies give you an okay number of shots, but it's obvious from your lists you don't understand the value of bodies on the field.
You're all tooled for taking down expensive high value pieces. But you can't clear out raw bodies with any speed. And those bodies will score victory points, and then you lose the mission.
Third, you're way too willing to go for min maxing over getting simple solid value.
Adding a cw detachment with 2 warlocks for just the co?
If you just wanted co, get a second archons and 90 pts of warriors.
If you want the cw detachment, get a farseers so you can actually get some value from casting doom.

In short you gave illegal lists, that can't secure objectives, can't deal with the bodies which will secure objectives, and has no counterplay if the opponent doesn't follow your exact game plan of fielding high point cost units.
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PostSubject: Re: Would you pay 300pts for 5CP?   Mon May 14 2018, 12:11

@hexxenwyrd wrote:
So problems with those lists.
Rules wise: More than 3 ravangers. So not legal in organized play.
Too many detachments in the second list. Not legal.


I think it's worth pointing out that while it's assumed to have become the norm, not everywhere or everyone uses the suggestions for Organized Play.
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