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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 04:36

I'm not impressed with this tool.

1. Currently only functions with Power Levels (I'm curious how many ppl here actually play with Power Levels...but that can be another thread)

2. Doesn't allow for the user to list what weaponry/items a unit is equipped with

3. Doesn't provide any sort of information on units or weapons

Assumption:

1. GW wanted to be able to say they've provided their fan base with SOMETHING for free (regardless of whether it is hot garbage)

2. Their inability to make a transition from physical rule books to electronic is going to continue to be a significant barrier as they try to protect their intellectual property

3. GW will provide another - updated - version of the tool in the months to follow that provides point values

3.1 When they do, BattleScribe will receive a cease and desist order from GW with regards to placing any GW info into the BattleScribe application

3.2 GW will charge for their point-based tool

3.3 That tool will also resemble hot garbage

Anyone see this heading in any other direction?

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DingK
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 05:42

GW is drawing parallels between Combat Roster and Warscroll Builder.

The latter is for AoS, has points (which is easier since wargear doesn't have a points cost there), has the option to designate your Warlord and give him one of the Allegiance traits and relics.

As for Combat Roster: without the ability to put anything in detachments, it's completely useless for anything other than adding up the total of Power Level. I guess GW customers aren't expected to be ablo to do simple mathematics anymore?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 09:16

Tried it briefly last night and immediately realised it was totally pointless (in more ways than one). I'm honestly not even sure what GW thought it was going to achieve with this functionless facility.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 10:03

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

3.1 When they do, BattleScribe will receive a cease and desist order from GW with regards to placing any GW info into the BattleScribe application

Given that Battlescribe is just a basic app, with the actual data files (including any and all GW stuff) being made by fans, I can't see that working.

It would be like trying to sue a company that makes televisions because you don't like a particular TV show.

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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 10:52

From the article they describe this as something their programmer threw together in an afternoon. It clearly shows, as it's super basic power levels stuff that doesn't need an app in the first place. They did mention they have a proper points calculation app in the works - we'll see how it goes. I have little love for Battlescribe due to its wonky interface always giving a headache at pleasing the inputs of very simple upgrades in a way that it can understand, so GW doesn't exactly have a high standard to overcome.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 11:56

When 8e launched, there was a really good army roster that GW asked the author to take down. They should just hire him and put it back up again as it was ready-made and seemed to run pretty much perfectly.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 12:19

@Count Adhemar wrote:
When 8e launched, there was a really good army roster that GW asked the author to take down. They should just hire him and put it back up again as it was ready-made and seemed to run pretty much perfectly.

They say they commissioned someone. Maybe he is said someone and they simply don't want a prefect army builder now?

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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 13:30

Do not, my friends, become addicted to the army building apps. They will take hold of you, and you will resent their absence.
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 14:22

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Tried it briefly last night and immediately realised it was totally pointless (in more ways than one). I'm honestly not even sure what GW thought it was going to achieve with this functionless facility.
Have to agree, you can't even organise your selections into detachments, making it useless for even Narrative Play.
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Ming the Merciless
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 15:49

@DingK wrote:
I guess GW customers aren't expected to be ablo to do simple mathematics anymore?

It's evidently an issue given the number of post-faq complaints about having to calculate the power level total of reserve units... Rolling Eyes
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megatrons2nd
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 16:56

I never even really looked at my units power levels. They weren't relevant until now.

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 19:53

Right now, as others have stated, its totaly useless, its not even funny. If they update it for points costs, wargear options etc etc it might be ok...
Btw i dont get the battlescibe negativity its an amazing tool my group uses it all the time and we are perfectly happy there must be something im missing...
tbh i dont know how anyone can build a list WITHOUT battlescribe, you do it with what? pen and paper? what if you want to make minor adjustments, add or remove units, wargear etc...?
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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 20:20

@DevilDoll wrote:
Right now, as others have stated, its totaly useless, its not even funny. If they update it for points costs, wargear options etc etc it might be ok...
Btw i dont get the battlescibe negativity its an amazing tool my group uses it all the time and we are perfectly happy there must be something im missing...
tbh i dont know how anyone can build a list WITHOUT battlescribe, you do it with what? pen and paper? what if you want to make minor adjustments, add or remove units, wargear etc...?

Yeah, I don't understand the negativity towards BattleScribe either. I think for as complicated and as nuanced as 40K is, the UI is very intuitive.

Frankly I don't know what the point of even putting out that baseless Combat Roster "tool" was, aside from the fact that they provided their customers with a deadline (...which they missed).

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Rashkasha
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 22:32

Battlescribe works quite well for making lists. What I don't like is that it uses so many blank / extra lines it's a real mess to scroll back and forth to find stats and equipment. A single Raider takes a full A4 page.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Tue May 01 2018, 23:25

The issues I have with Battlescribe are:

- The detachment system is a pain in the arse. Let's say I start making a list with 3 Patrols and then change my mind and decide it would work better as a Battalion and Outrider. Well, I can't just move or copy the units I've already made over to a Battalion detachment. I have to delete them all and then make them all again in the new detachment.

- I find the layout of the army lists obnoxious. It just seems like there's a load of wasted space and a load of useless details that can't be turned off. It seems like I'm generally better off using Battlescribe to build my list, but then copying it into Word so that I can format it in a way that a) takes up less space and b) doesn't melt my eyes.

That said, I do still use Battlescribe for all my lists, so it must still be pretty good.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Wed May 02 2018, 00:56

There was many websites that looked almost the same, i'm 100% sure they put htis only to shut down those websites so GW can have more traffic.

They did also say they will do points later, but my worry is this will take a year and when it does come out it will still be bad.

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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Wed May 02 2018, 03:32

The only actual games I've played so far are with the Dark Imperium models. My friends and I use Power Level since the games are informal and we're all totally inexperienced.

With that said, I think Combat Roster is fine for what it is. I've picked up a few extra models for each army (Primaris Librarian, Blighthauler, etc.), and gauging Power Level serves as a quick, easy way to ensure there isn't a massive imbalance. An example would be Primaris having 30% higher PL than DG.

Combat Roster was fun for 30 minutes last night, seeing a) which units were available for either army, and b) how any given units compare in PL.

I might be inexperienced enough not to appreciate how useless the app is, but for what it sets out to do, I guess it does just fine?


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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Wed May 02 2018, 05:15

For Open Play it sounds like an effective tool. It just seems that they gave too high a bar for expectations. If there app with points if forthcoming, they should have started the announcement by saying this isn't for Matched or Narrative...
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Wed May 02 2018, 07:07

@DevilDoll wrote:
Right now, as others have stated, its totaly useless, its not even funny. If they update it for points costs, wargear options etc etc it might be ok...
Btw i dont get the battlescibe negativity its an amazing tool my group uses it all the time and we are perfectly happy there must be something im missing...
tbh i dont know how anyone can build a list WITHOUT battlescribe, you do it with what? pen and paper? what if you want to make minor adjustments, add or remove units, wargear etc...?

I usually just use exel for a true list, and either exel or pen and paper for a rough list/points estimate.

The layout to me is horrible, I usually want to either just calculate the points and then I just want to make it fast and clear to calculate the points, or I want a full army list including stats etc, neither option is availible in battlescribe. If I take a unit of 10 kabalites with 2 blasters it annoys me a little bit I first have to go back to reduce the number of kabalites and then ad more with special weapon options, and why are they not just written as 2 kabalites with blasters but have to be kabalite with blaster kabalite with blaster.

I hate that I cannot just make adjustments in battlescribe. I thought I could fill a brigade, turns out I don't have enough points: I can start over again. And changing anything takes a crap of work in my mind, truth is it probably takes less time than exel if the layout in battlescribe worked for me. Since I do not really like it, I don't use it often and because of that if I need to change anything I first have to search where it is.
I am currently doing a growth campaign, just adding units, won't work since I cannot move anyone from one detachment to another.
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Wed May 02 2018, 07:52

As basic as Combat Roster is, here's what boggles me...

All generic Space Marine units are under the Space Marine faction. All chapter specific units & characters are under said chapter faction.
As such, if I wanted to build an Ultramarines list, I have to fill out most choices under Space Marines, then switch faction to UM and pick my Guilliman, Tigurius et al.
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Wed May 02 2018, 08:21

@DingK wrote:
As basic as Combat Roster is, here's what boggles me...

All generic Space Marine units are under the Space Marine faction. All chapter specific units & characters are under said chapter faction.
As such, if I wanted to build an Ultramarines list, I have to fill out most choices under Space Marines, then switch faction to UM and pick my Guilliman, Tigurius et al.

Thats actually really annoying.

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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Wed May 02 2018, 08:35

This is the way I see it:

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

I'm not impressed with this tool.

1. Currently only functions with Power Levels (I'm curious how many ppl here actually play with Power Levels...but that can be another thread)
It is a tool made to quickly calculate power levels. That is all it is. It says so right in the introduction on the community page.
(After the new FAQ everyone that wants to deep strike potentially has to care about power levels)

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

2. Doesn't allow for the user to list what weaponry/items a unit is equipped with
Since you do not pay for upgrades they have no effect on the power level of the selected unit, so that is out of the scope of this tool

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

3. Doesn't provide any sort of information on units or weapons
See point 1 and 2
I might also mention that it adds models in increments of 5 etc.


@SushiBoy013 wrote:

1. GW wanted to be able to say they've provided their fan base with SOMETHING for free (regardless of whether it is hot garbage)
Yep, must have been a cynical ploy. Maybe even meant as a personal insult to you?  Razz

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

2. Their inability to make a transition from physical rule books to electronic is going to continue to be a significant barrier as they try to protect their intellectual property
You mean the rule set that has every book available as .epub? If only they could figure out how to auto update the codexes on Android devices though.

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

3. GW will provide another - updated - version of the tool in the months to follow that provides point values
They will create an app that has a point based list building tool included. Not update the combat roster page.

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

3.1 When they do, BattleScribe will receive a cease and desist order from GW with regards to placing any GW info into the BattleScribe application
Since battle scribe does not host the database files GW would have no legal legs to stand on in that regard. It would be like suing Microsoft because someone made a list builder database that could be imported to Excel. I would not put it past them to try though. Smile

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

3.2 GW will charge for their point-based tool
Judging from the AoS app, the 40K app itself will be free, but you would be asked to pay a silly amount of money to purchase the database file for each army. Even if you already have payed for the physical or digital codex.

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

3.3 That tool will also resemble hot garbage
If you keep expecting it to do something other than it was designed to, you will keep getting disappointed. In fact if you think it will be equal or better than battlescribe, I think you might have a bad time.

They should just have called it "Just a POWER LEVEL calculator  TM" to avoid confusion, but I think even then people would go: Oh my goed GW! This is green!. I have told you a million frickin' times that a wanted a blue combat roster. MY ENTIRE BIRHTDAY IS RUINED! YOU RUINED MY LIFE GW!
cheers
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Wed May 02 2018, 09:24

About only buying guys in 5's

PL work like that, some units its 1 guy, some its 5, others are 3, and some its even 7 or 9 guys. It depends on the unit this is normal.

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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Wed May 02 2018, 09:45

Not being able to copy and paste units (Warscroll Builder does have this ability) is also annoying. Considering the range of units some armies have within a certain FOC slot, this would save a lot of clicking and scrolling.
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PostSubject: Re: Combat Roster: First Impressions   Wed May 02 2018, 13:37

@Scrz wrote:
This is the way I see it:

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

I'm not impressed with this tool.

1. Currently only functions with Power Levels (I'm curious how many ppl here actually play with Power Levels...but that can be another thread)
It is a tool made to quickly calculate power levels. That is all it is. It says so right in the introduction on the community page.
(After the new FAQ everyone that wants to deep strike potentially has to care about power levels)

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

2. Doesn't allow for the user to list what weaponry/items a unit is equipped with
Since you do not pay for upgrades they have no effect on the power level of the selected unit, so that is out of the scope of this tool

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

3. Doesn't provide any sort of information on units or weapons
See point 1 and 2
I might also mention that it adds models in increments of 5 etc.


@SushiBoy013 wrote:

1. GW wanted to be able to say they've provided their fan base with SOMETHING for free (regardless of whether it is hot garbage)
Yep, must have been a cynical ploy. Maybe even meant as a personal insult to you?  Razz

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

2. Their inability to make a transition from physical rule books to electronic is going to continue to be a significant barrier as they try to protect their intellectual property
You mean the rule set that has every book available as .epub? If only they could figure out how to auto update the codexes on Android devices though.

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

3. GW will provide another - updated - version of the tool in the months to follow that provides point values
They will create an app that has a point based list building tool included. Not update the combat roster page.

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

3.1 When they do, BattleScribe will receive a cease and desist order from GW with regards to placing any GW info into the BattleScribe application
Since battle scribe does not host the database files GW would have no legal legs to stand on in that regard. It would be like suing Microsoft because someone made a list builder database that could be imported to Excel. I would not put it past them to try though. Smile

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

3.2 GW will charge for their point-based tool
Judging from the AoS app, the 40K app itself will be free, but you would be asked to pay a silly amount of money to purchase the database file for each army. Even if you already have payed for the physical or digital codex.

@SushiBoy013 wrote:

3.3 That tool will also resemble hot garbage
If you keep expecting it to do something other than it was designed to, you will keep getting disappointed. In fact if you think it will be equal or better than battlescribe, I think you might have a bad time.

They should just have called it "Just a POWER LEVEL calculator  TM" to avoid confusion, but I think even then people would go: Oh my goed GW! This is green!. I have told you a million frickin' times that a wanted a blue combat roster. MY ENTIRE BIRHTDAY IS RUINED! YOU RUINED MY LIFE GW!
cheers
You seem to have missed the point, GW have provided an app that nobody wanted or needed (seriously, how hard is it to add up PL?), yet not provided the app(s) that people actually want. For people actually looking to play games, Combat Roster has no value.

Oh, and GW charge £1 per month for access to all the matched play stuff in their AoS app, which coveres every faction. I wouldn't take that as a guarantee that they'll do the same for 40K though given the different ways they release content for the two games.
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