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 Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Wed May 02 2018, 21:06

@DingK wrote:
@colinsherlow wrote:
@Myrvn wrote:
For #3 you mention turtling (paraphrased). With an 8" move and ability to reroll runs, an Archon is pretty quick. How static do people use them? I've kept that part of my fire base together, but they are always moving.
.

Also with the pgl on the archon you can use fire and fade for another 7" move.  So 8+ d6 +7 gives you a lot of distance to keep mobile of needed

Except an Archon can't actually take a PGL. Sybarites can, as can Hekatrixes, but not our HQs.

Index option. So, yes, they can.
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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Wed May 02 2018, 23:38

Thanks very much for the write up. Really enjoyed reading this. For the Grots did you feel like not having Urien’s +1S buff ever hurt them in any of your games? Also did any of your opponents ever try to focus on your Haemie to get rid of the Vexator Mask? Lastly, my current list has a squad of 3 Talos running alongside 10 Grots. How would you recommend using the Talos? As a distraction unit to soak up fire or a mop unit to charge in after the Grots?
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Wed May 02 2018, 23:57

I really like the talos with fire and fade. They can get up the field really quick with it. It helps them engage much sooner

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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Thu May 03 2018, 00:32

Just a note for your Iyanden game.

The Wraithknight can be slightly nastier than you described(!)

Base 4 attacks
Titanic feet make 3 hit rolls for each attack
Psytronome of Iyanden double attacks but take D3 mortal wounds at end of phase
Supreme Disdain Stratagem extra attack on each 6+ to hit
(this is what you described)

Plus Runes of Battle power Enhance which gives +1 to hit.
and Spiritseer to reroll 1s to hit.

Put all of that together (ridiculous overkill numbers coming):
24 attacks (4 base × 2 Psytronome × 3 Titanic feet)
23.33 base hits (hit on 2+ rerolling 1s)
28 bonus attacks (3 extra attacks for each 5+ rerolling 1s)
27.22 bonus hits
50.56 total hits

Even without the Spiritseer and Enhance that is fairly crazy:
24 attacks
16 base hits
12 bonus attacks
8 bonus hits
24 total hits

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Thu May 03 2018, 00:48

Thank you very much for the reports, Skulnbonz, always good to read post-tournament analyses.

@Skulnbonz wrote:

Reavers. Any opponent that sets up critical units in charge range of these are not the norm. they are the exception.  reavers fly out, and get ganked. If they do make combat, they are armed with Pool Noodles and whiffle ball bats. they still are not worth the points they cost, and are again, situational at best.

This assessment seems strange to me.  They are only 5 points more than the Hellions you rate so highly, while solving a lot of their delivery issues (extra point of armor, extra wound, extra toughness, +4" of speed).  Both can use flyover stratagem (though capped at 12), plus the additional mortal wounds from Talons, plus potentially another source of special weapons.

I feel like if you are going to take Hellions, you need to rock the full 20, which pretty much locks you into Cursed Blade, who have easily the least impressive relic, stratagem, and warlord trait of the three cults.  Cursed Blade also negates the benefit of having assault splinter weapons (which would otherwise be an advantage over the rapid fire Reavers if both were Red Grief).

Regarding damage output, before combat drugs, it's S4 AP0 2D vs. S4 AP-1 1D. Cursed Blade Hellions would be S5, potentially S6 with drugs (although I would prefer the extra attack at this point). I definitely feel our need for multi-damage weapons in melee (I hope they give this niche to Incubi if they ever get re-evaluated), but were the AP-less Hellions really able to utilize that (assuming they weren't dead on arrival)? A few proxy games had them bouncing off power armor.

---

Likewise, the point regarding Reavers not being able to engage first turn also seems strange. 18" + re-rollable D6" + re-rollable 2D6" with Red Grief means your opponent is deploying with his back to the edge of his deployment zone, which can be an advantage in its own way.

---

Regarding your thoughts on the Writ, I see what you're getting at.  Did you have instances where you wanted to utilize the full speed of the Ravagers to redeploy them (I assume the reaper stayed put)?  What role does this leave the Black Heart Archon then, who is there I presume for LabCunning and to provide re-rolls?  If the Ravagers are flitting about, his to hit re-rolls also go to waste, and he can't hop in a transport to go after the enemy without giving up the warlord trait benefit.


edit: just to forestall any potential drama, since I've encountered some really sensitive folks on here, the above is an attempt to have a genuine and hopefully productive discussion about the merits of these units.  I am not entrenched in any particular position, and welcome any and all input.  This is not an attack, or an attestation of my superiority, or an insult to your family and loved ones. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Thu May 03 2018, 01:17

In the tournament I played, I took a unit of 6 Reavers. They didn't do much, and honestly just about exactly as skullnbonz described. BUT, I won 2 out of 3 and should've won the 4th if a unit of shining spears wouldn't have rolled incredibly well on saves. My opponent was forced to deploy deep in his zone as some have said and it was definitely a benefit. I need more playtesting without them. Right now I can see both sides.
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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Thu May 03 2018, 12:35

@sweetbacon wrote:
 For the Grots did you feel like not having Urien’s +1S buff ever hurt them in any of your games?
I did have Urien. But, this may sound dumb, but in some cases, depending on the opponent, it would be better to not have urien close, because you want your grots at lower strength.  If you are facing anything with a 3+ invul save, you want to use the gauntlets, and coupled with the reroll stratagem, you want as many chances as possible to get that "6". If you are wounding on 3's, you wont get as many rerolls as if you are wounding on 5's.

Quote :

 Also did any of your opponents ever try to focus on your Haemie to get rid of the Vexator Mask?  Lastly, my current list has a squad of 3 Talos running alongside 10 Grots.  How would you recommend using the Talos?  As a distraction unit to soak up fire or a mop unit to charge in after the Grots?
Funny, but adding 3 talos (w/ haywire and flail) is exactly one of the changes I made to my list! Depending on the opponent and deployment, i plan on using them to be both a distraction as well as a unit that cant be ignored, all the while my tanks and warriors will be blasting away! (not to mention charging flyers!)

As for the hamei, I surround him with the grots (a literal circle). If they have snipers, I will possibly deploy different to use cover until i can remove them.

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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Thu May 03 2018, 12:46

@withershadow wrote:


I feel like if you are going to take Hellions, you need to rock the full 20, which pretty much locks you into Cursed Blade, who have easily the least impressive relic, stratagem, and warlord trait of the three cults.
Exactly. A 20 man blob of cursed blade. The relic is trash, the warlord trait I could care less about, but the stratagem and the obsession MORE than make up for any shortcomings. The strategem is situational, but I did use it to kill a baneblade that was on 2 wounds who decided to charge 5 wyches in some woods. For 1 Cp, why not? It is not great, but it can come in handy. The true gem, even more than the +1 str is "never lose more than 1 to morale", which is a wych cults biggest issue... crumbling after being shot to pieces.
Quote :


Likewise, the point regarding Reavers not being able to engage first turn also seems strange. 18" + re-rollable D6" + re-rollable 2D6" with Red Grief means your opponent is deploying with his back to the edge of his deployment zone, which can be an advantage in its own way.
If you were facing a unit of 12 reavers, would YOU put something important up front, or would you screen with lesser units, or in my case, I would screen with raiders turned sideways. (maybe wracks on foot) If you destroy a raider, i deploy 3" out of the back so you cannot consolidate into HTH, and wipe the unit from the board next turn. Weather it is one blob of 12, or three of four, it is the same. No player worth their salt will give you the charge on any unit he is not willing to trade for the reavers.
Quote :

 What role does this leave the Black Heart Archon then, who is there I presume for LabCunning and to provide re-rolls?  
exactly. It is a waste of a blaster, a PGL and a huskblade. It is like a 96 point tax to toke the writ, as well as making you less mobile and bunched up. I pretty much only take the writ if my opponent has to come to me, so my first turn can be deadly, and i can protect my ravagers with the grots.
Quote :

edit: just to forestall any potential drama, since I've encountered some really sensitive folks on here, the above is an attempt to have a genuine and hopefully productive discussion about the merits of these units.  I am not entrenched in any particular position, and welcome any and all input.  This is not an attack, or an attestation of my superiority, or an insult to your family and loved ones. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Thu May 03 2018, 16:48

People are really only focusing on red grief reavers for first turn charges to stall the opponent as if this is the only viable way to run them. Reavers are more than just that though. They don't hit super hard but 1ap attacks are still solid and you can clear chaf units well from a long distance. Reavers can also be held back to assault valuable units vehicles later in the game to prevent shooting, assaults and whatnot. Objective grabbing is solid as well. Reavers are a unitilty unit that can have a really long threat range. They are fast enough for the occasional character sniping as well which is solid. Anything that makes your opponent think more is good in my books. Whether it be having your opponent deploy more defensively, spend more time position/protecting their characters etc.. And reavers do that well.

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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Thu May 03 2018, 17:47

@Skulnbonz wrote:
The true gem, even more than the +1 str is "never lose more than 1 to morale", which is a wych cults biggest issue... crumbling after being shot to pieces.
I don't really know how much of an issue that really is.  If you're getting your Wyches shot that unit is pretty much a gonner anyway.  And wouldn't 5-strong units be effectively immune?


Quote :
I would screen with raiders turned sideways. (maybe wracks on foot) If you destroy a raider, i deploy 3" out of the back so you cannot consolidate into HTH, and wipe the unit from the board next turn.  Weather it is one blob of 12, or three of four, it is the same. No player worth their salt will give you the charge on any unit he is not willing to trade for the reavers.  
That's fair, but again, the reavers can fly over stuff and practically reach the back edge of the board. You basically have to deploy as a layered brick to not leave any room anywhere for the Reavers except right out front.  I don't know, still seems like a useful tool, and not a reason to write them off just yet.  And the unit of 12 is capable of quite a lot more, as elaborated upon above.  If no targets present themselves, hold them back until the brick unravels, and then cut in deep.  Flyover with 12 Reavers and 4 talons going off is about as devastating as a 20-man Hellion unit, except you can actually deliver the Reavers.

Quote :
exactly. It is a waste of a blaster, a PGL and a huskblade. It is like a 96 point tax to toke the writ, as well as making you less mobile and bunched up. I pretty much only take the writ if my opponent has to come to me, so my first turn can be deadly, and i can protect my ravagers with the grots.
Most of the time I don't see people giving a blaster to the Writ archon, but sure, we've established it's a bit of a waste to have him just babysitting Ravagers.  But you also can't really throw him in combat either as your warlord, and his re-rolls basically don't help the rest of the army at all at that point.  So he remains a tax, but now only provides LabCunning and the detachment unlocks Agents. It calls the entire detachment into question. Now if Incubi get <Kabal>... Razz

Quote :
Quote :

edit: just to forestall any potential drama, since I've encountered some really sensitive folks on here, the above is an attempt to have a genuine and hopefully productive discussion about the merits of these units.  I am not entrenched in any particular position, and welcome any and all input.  This is not an attack, or an attestation of my superiority, or an insult to your family and loved ones. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Fri May 04 2018, 09:50

Are you sure the vexator mask works like that? Doesn't charging count as an ability to go first, so they could just be selected to go first as usual ( as described in the relic)? That's how I had seen it interpreted before, and that is how some similar psychic powers work, I believe..

I'd love to be wrong though.
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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Fri May 04 2018, 10:12

Point to the rule stating that a charged unit counts as having the ability to strike first. Hint: there's none.

They strike first due to how the attack orders are sequenced during fight phase step 1.

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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Fri May 04 2018, 10:51

You mention you took Urien as well as a regular Haemy. Did you have the both of them surrounded by Grots or was one of them elsewhere? Was the regular Haemy only intended as a way to get the Vexator Mask on the board since his and Urien's auras don't stack?
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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Fri May 04 2018, 14:30

@Toffeehammer wrote:
Was the regular Haemy only intended as a way to get the Vexator Mask on the board since his and Urien's auras don't stack?

Yes, I kept them both with the grots. The haemy was there only to use the vexator mask and do some damage with his electrocorosive whip (he is better in combat than urien by far).

My new list has Talos in it, so i will be splitting them up unless my opponents army dictates otherwise. The vexator stays with the grots though.

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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Fri May 04 2018, 14:37

Quote :
Are you sure the vexator mask works like that?


it is pretty clear. In fact, it takes away other "always strikes first" abilities completely!

Charging does NOT guarantee striking first, or the "interrupt" stratagem and the warlord trait for a succubus would be useless.

Nope, it works like I stated, and is an amazing piece of wargear! Or, relic, as it were!

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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Fri May 04 2018, 15:17

Wait. He got a point. He charges your grotesques and you're doing an intervention.
He could strike first but you chose his unit so his strike first and yours negate each other.
So he got to strike first with all units that charged this turn except that one.
Then the alternating starts and since it's his turn, he can start.

Where did I go wrong?

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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Fri May 04 2018, 15:30

@CptMetal wrote:
Wait. He got a point. He charges your grotesques and you're doing an intervention.
He could strike first but you chose his unit so his strike first and yours negate each other.
So he got to strike first with all units that charged this turn except that one.
Then the alternating starts and since it's his turn, he can start.

Where did I go wrong?


I think that this is a correct interpretation. On the other hand, you would be able to use a counter-attack stratagem to strike before the vexator'd unit, assuming that he had to fight with at least one other charging unit beforehand.
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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Fri May 04 2018, 15:45

If it has an ability to fight first in the fight phase, it INSTEAD fights as if it did not have this ability. then the vexator mask makes them strike last, after all other combats.
dead last.
Banshees, slaneesh, you name it.
Last.

Not seeing the issue here.

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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Fri May 04 2018, 15:48

Oh, and nowhere in any rules does it say chargers gain a strike first ability. It states you start combats with units that charged
HUGE difference.

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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Fri May 04 2018, 15:49

@Skulnbonz wrote:
If it has an ability to fight first in the fight phase, it INSTEAD fights as if it did not have this ability. then the vexator mask makes them strike last, after all other combats.
dead last.
Banshees, slaneesh, you name it.
Last.

Not seeing the issue here.

I think you're doubling the Mask's power.
An enemy unit
- can be selected normally. Due to the mask, it will be forced to fight last.
OR (not AND)
- has an ability to fight first. Due to the mask, it now fights as if it didn't. In other words, it can be selected in normal sequence.
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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Fri May 04 2018, 16:43

Yeah it sounds like the chosen charging unit will strike dead last for sure.
But if it has an ability to strike first it loses that ability, and you procede choosing the order of operations as usual. So the one whose turn it it chooses who fights first etc.

Seems simple enough to me

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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Fri May 04 2018, 20:52

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Oh, and nowhere in any rules does it say chargers gain a strike first ability. It states you start combats with units that charged
That's the key part.

When I first read the Vexator Mask, I was thinking it was fairly uninspiring thinking that would just cancel the ability of the charging unit, and the other player would choose that unit first anyway. But I was wrong for the reason you outlined above - there is no ability to always strike first when you charge, that is just the normal combat sequence.

Interestingly, one of the few units that had always strike first, Howling Banshees, lost that in the change to Codex, and now has overwatch immunity instead.

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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Fri May 04 2018, 20:55

@DingK wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:
If it has an ability to fight first in the fight phase, it INSTEAD fights as if it did not have this ability. then the vexator mask makes them strike last, after all other combats.
dead last.
Banshees, slaneesh, you name it.
Last.

Not seeing the issue here.

I think you're doubling the Mask's power.
An enemy unit
- can be selected normally. Due to the mask, it will be forced to fight last.
OR (not AND)
- has an ability to fight first. Due to the mask, it now fights as if it didn't. In other words, it can be selected in normal sequence.

I agree. If a unit has an ability that lets it always strike first the effect of the mask is to remove that abilty. You can't ALSO have it make the unit go last. It's instead of that.

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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Sat May 05 2018, 12:12

Vexator needs a FAQ I think.

RAW it would seem that the targetted unit always strikes last, unless they have a rule/ability that specifically states they always strike first. In that case their ability is negated, but you otherwise follow through as normal.

I.e. If my unit is being charged by a model that 'always strikes first' and I Vexator Mask it, then it will lose that ability but still strike first because it's charging. However, if I charge that unit that 'always strikes first' and then Vexator Mask it then I cancel out that ability and I attack first because I'm charging.

If the unit I target doesn't have that specific rule/ability, then it will always fight dead last regardless of whether it's charging or not.

"If the unit has an ability that allows it to fight first in the Fight phase, it INSTEAD fights as if it did not have this ability." Keyword: instead, as in instead of fighting last.

The wording makes it one or the other. You'd have a hard time convincing a tournament organiser that, going by RAW, it cancels out the ability AND still forces them to go last, because it doesn't say that.

Either way it's still an amazing relic, and the situations where using doesn't allow you to strike first are very few and far between.
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PostSubject: Re: Took Dark Eldar to an 80 person Grand Tournament.   Sat May 05 2018, 12:44

And finnaly does it cancel the "strike second" stratagem ? I'm not sure about this one
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