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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Raider vs Venom (again)   Mon Apr 30 2018, 16:37

I'm going to take 3 units of Blasterborn in a list. Which is best for transport, Raider or Venom?
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FattimusMcGee
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Mon Apr 30 2018, 16:54

Imho, Venoms. Cheaper and you get the -1 to hit.

If you go Raiders you'll be tempted to put two units into one transports which breaks the "too many eggs one basket" issue whereas 3 Venoms zipping around the field gives you more leeway and costs less.

Don't forget to immediately use Lighting Fast Reactions if they try to focus down one of your Venoms as well!
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Mon Apr 30 2018, 16:58

I definitely won't be putting 2 units in 1 Raider. I might add an Archon with a Blaster to one of them though.

I can't work out which vehicle is actually tougher to kill. -1 to hit is excellent, but 10 Wounds rather than 6 is also excellent ... lol.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Mon Apr 30 2018, 17:15

Honestly I think both of our transports are now solid enough that you can't go wrong with taking one over the other. If you want the absolute cheapest option for putting 3 5 mans into separate transports, than yes venom is probably your best bet, but if you want a little extra firepower from a dissie cannon or dark lance than take a raider.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Mon Apr 30 2018, 17:18

@Hellstrom wrote:
I definitely won't be putting 2 units in 1 Raider.  I might add an Archon with a Blaster to one of them though.

I can't work out which vehicle is actually tougher to kill.  -1 to hit is excellent, but 10 Wounds rather than 6 is also excellent ... lol.

Say it to a Tesla weapon, or a Plasmagun Smile

Raider is pretty good as a transport, but Venom still too good overall. -1 is way too good, more than 10 wounds.
If the Raider had 12 wounds, maybe...-1 to hit is just too good.


Anyway don't put all of your Trueborns in a single Raider until you're planning to DS it. Otherwise, just bring out 2 Venom, it's better!
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FattimusMcGee
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Mon Apr 30 2018, 17:31

Venom > Raider all day 'ery day.

4W difference isn't that big of deal when the -1-to-hit can negate that Lascannon shot in the first place! Again if you drop the Lighting Reactions your Venom then becomes -2 to hit which means certain armies either A) won't want to shoot at it or B) can't even hit it (ie Orks).


But either is valid. With the 5++ they're both surprisingly resilient
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Mon Apr 30 2018, 17:36

I strongly disagree in just writing off the venom over the raider all the time. In the context of 5 man trueborn units, yes you likely want to use venoms, but across your whole army especially for warriors/wyches you're saving a lot of pts by taking raiders with the higher transport capacity. Not only that, but given how awesome dissie cannons are raiders are one of only 3 units that can take dissie cannons, and at only 80pts that's one nice cheap transport with a good gun. I like the venom, can't argue against the -1 to hit being really good but I think mixing our transports together in the same list is the way to go.

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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Mon Apr 30 2018, 17:55

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
I strongly disagree in just writing off the venom over the raider all the time. In the context of 5 man trueborn units, yes you likely want to use venoms, but across your whole army especially for warriors/wyches you're saving a lot of pts by taking raiders with the higher transport capacity. Not only that, but given how awesome dissie cannons are raiders are one of only 3 units that can take dissie cannons, and at only 80pts that's one nice cheap transport with a good gun. I like the venom, can't argue against the -1 to hit being really good but I think mixing our transports together in the same list is the way to go.

The thing is that you can bring out Dissies from Razorwing and Ravagers, which works better than the Raider itself.
Raiders are bigger, and that push your opponent to shoot them down more than a Venom will do.
So putting something into a Raider is like pushing your opponent to shoot at it...which is good! You can play around it. Mixing both can be usefull when you want to protect some units more than the others.
Example: 3x5 Wyches in Venoms and 2x10 Kabals in Raider. As an opponent, I will focus down Raiders first, because they seems more attractive to me. That a good way to bring your Wyches into the enemy.
Example2: 3x5 Kabals in Venoms and 2x10 Wyches in Raider. I will double shoot those Raiders because they are 1) bigger and 2) carring in some melee units! If I take down those Raiders, you will have 10 footslogging Wyches...not a great sceario.

I like Raiders, I definitely would play them in this case...or for bringing in some Grotesques. But straight on? Venoms are simply better. If you wanna just play around shooting/flooding the opponents in melee just play 5x5Warriors on Venoms (FlayedSkull maybe) or 5x5 Wyches on Venoms.
Raiders are good, but Venoms are just better overall imho
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Mon Apr 30 2018, 21:50

I use my Trueborn as a contingency plan. I have Scourges and some other stuff as dedicated anti-tank units, lots of Splinter fire for anti infantry/monster, and have Trueborns on a Venom as a backup. In a Venom, they're fast, have both Darklight and Splinter fire, so they are a really good backup for any other unit in my army that turns out to need help.

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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Mon Apr 30 2018, 22:12

I love Venoms so, so much. Literally every list I build has three of them at minimum - their speed and negative hit modifiers make them invaluable tools alongside their quite decent anti-infantry capabilities. I've had a single one tank almost an entire round of Imperial Guard shooting when it was amped up with Lightning-Fast Reactions.

Raiders? I flat out don't find them as useful.
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Mon Apr 30 2018, 22:28

Venom can be one-shotted by a Lascannon, Raider cannot.

3 Raiders with Dissies costs 240pts
3 Venoms costs 195pts

Effectively you are paying 45pts extra to get an extra Dissie Ravager's worth of shooting on the table.

I think I'm preferring Raiders.
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Mon Apr 30 2018, 23:45

I've always preferred Raiders for this very reason. It's simply more durable and if you're using it primarily as a craft to protect those inside, we have no better sub.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Mon Apr 30 2018, 23:49

I'm in a plasma-spam heavy meta, so I prefer Venoms to discourage overcharging. (Not that it stops them, but it's fun watching my opponent suffer 20-30% plasma casualties in his own turn.

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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Tue May 01 2018, 00:10

It is not just a matter of points.
-Raiders carry more people. That means that when I lose 1 Venom I got 5 men on the ground, you lose a Raider you got 10 men on the ground.;
-Raiders are HUGE. Venoms are small, way more easy to hide;
-Venoms move more;
- -1 to hit is more durable than +4 wounds.


Yes a single D6 damage can kill one entire Venom....1/6 of the time. Then you'll lose a Venom, who cares. 5 Kabal/Wyches inside, I have a lot of them. But when you lose a Raider, you feel it.
Dissies and BL on Raiders aren't this great dealt. Get 5 wounds and you will begin to shoot at 4+. 7 wounds, and it comes on 5+. If you want good Dissies, check out the Razorwings.

Don't get fool with those 4 wounds, -1 to hit it's way better overall. Get an army that shoot at 4+ (Astra, Tau, etc) and laugh. Get an Orks and laugh. Get a Tesla Necron or plasma marine and just laugh. Raiders are more fragile than Venoms, and they carry way more units. Don't comparyze just Raiders/Venoms cost, try to take in even their units. You will find that 5 Warriors w/shredder on Venoms are way more cheap than 10 on Raiders. Overall, where you put 3 Raiders, I'm putting like 6 Venoms. And when I lose one of them, I just lost 1/6 of my power.
Yes on paper, Raiders seems harder, but overall when you list, you'll find Venoms too cheap for their toughness.

I play Raiders, for Grotesques or for 10 Kabals in DS. But these are specific choices. Venoms are just way more safer for their cost+unit in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Tue May 01 2018, 07:05

>- -1 to hit is more durable than +4 wounds.<

lol, what is this garbage?

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t15575-raider-vs-venom-survivablilty

Quote :
A Venom will die to:

72 Bolter shots
36 Heavy Bolter shots
27 Plasma shots
8 Lascannon shots

A Raider will die to:

90 Bolter shots
45 Heavy Bolter shots
34 Plasma shots
10 Lascannon shots

And before you forget, since your post is so biased that it borderlines the comical:
Raiders have Hover vs. Venoms that don't - so this favors assault units
Raiders carry HEAVY weaponry that have 36" engagement range
Raiders saw just as much points decrease as Venoms

This means that Raiders are now much more effective than they were before. With Dissies seeing a huge points decrease, 80 point Raiders vs. 65 point Venoms is strictly a meta-call. Personally, I would go with the Raiders almost all the time because my meta is MEQ/AdMech/IG/Custodes heavy. There's also a lot of armor and vehicles that Venoms are just top-tier trash against.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Tue May 01 2018, 08:28

Jeah I think it is often a large call on the local meta.
Going a lot against orks/demons or plasma: go for the venom
More MEQ/custodus and vehicles on the table: go for raiders

I do agree with the sentiment I would normally put expensive units like trueborn rather in a venom, since a 10 man trueborn raider is most of the time just begging for target practice.
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Tue May 01 2018, 09:00

@Cerve wrote:
It is not just a matter of points.
-Raiders carry more people. That means that when I lose 1 Venom I got 5 men on the ground, you lose a Raider you got 10 men on the ground.;

Or thats mean you spend less on transport at the end, or can do 10 men unit , or can put your caracter with your assault unit instead of letting him on foot. Yeah venom are still very good but they are not the go to choice anymore
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Tue May 01 2018, 10:03

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
It is not just a matter of points.
-Raiders carry more people. That means that when I lose 1 Venom I got 5 men on the ground, you lose a Raider you got 10 men on the ground.;

Or thats mean you spend less on transport at the end, or can do 10 men unit , or can put your caracter with your assault unit instead of letting him on foot. Yeah venom are still very good but they are not the go to choice anymore

True, but we are talking about Drukhari, a pretty fragile army. Putting all the eggs in a single paper-made transport doesnt' sounds good to me.
I always prefer the MSU-ish style with this army. Besides Covens
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Tue May 01 2018, 10:47

What about five men squads in raiders?
A DC if they are carrying a blaster and a lance if they are carrying a shredder. Only 123 points.
Take 10 of those.
Still target saturation and always enough space to carry an hq.
Add some razor wings for missiles and you're good to go.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Tue May 01 2018, 13:22

So, if anyone read the OP, I did say I'd be running 5 Trueborn (Blasters, but not critical to conversation), irrelevant of transport. So, yes, 5 man squads in Raiders Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Wed May 02 2018, 01:06

I love my Raiders, i only play 2 Venoms b.c they fit the theme of my army, otherwise for Comp games i'll never play Venom, i dont need more Poison weapons, Dissie all the way and as many blasters/Grots/Talos as i can get after my 3 Ravagers, 3 Warriors and 3 RWJF's.

Raiders are slightly more durable against most things, there are some units Venoms are better against, but only a couple armies (Orks and Necrons) and since Orks dont shoot atm that only leaves 1 army.

Raiders also are better for melee, they are larger and can pull in/spot movements much easier.

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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Wed May 02 2018, 02:50

@Cerve wrote:

The thing is that you can bring out Dissies from Razorwing and Ravagers, which works better than the Raider itself.
Raiders are bigger, and that push your opponent to shoot them down more than a Venom will do.
So putting something into a Raider is like pushing your opponent to shoot at it...which is good! You can play around it. Mixing both can be usefull when you want to protect some units more than the others.
Example: 3x5 Wyches in Venoms and 2x10 Kabals in Raider. As an opponent, I will focus down Raiders first, because they seems more attractive to me. That a good way to bring your Wyches into the enemy.
Example2: 3x5 Kabals in Venoms and 2x10 Wyches in Raider. I will double shoot those Raiders because they are 1) bigger and 2) carring in some melee units! If I take down those Raiders, you will have 10 footslogging Wyches...not a great sceario.

I like Raiders, I definitely would play them in this case...or for bringing in some Grotesques. But straight on? Venoms are simply better. If you wanna just play around shooting/flooding the opponents in melee just play 5x5Warriors on Venoms (FlayedSkull maybe) or 5x5 Wyches on Venoms.
Raiders are good, but Venoms are just better overall imho

Yeah you can take dissie/lances on ravagers and razorwing, but more the merrier so why not take more? I don't really see that as being a good point for not taking raiders, if you have say 3 ravagers plus 3 raiders those raiders is another whole ravager's worth of firepower.

My opponent's unfortunately don't just pick targets because they are "big". It's a point in the favor of the venom that they can hide more easily, but that's not a big enough point to justify me always taking venoms over raiders.

Ultimately it comes down to if I'm taking say 40-50 infantry in my average list of which I want most of my units in transports, 6+ venoms gets pricey, while taking some raiders is a big saver on pts for just considering transport capacity, so I will always have at least a 1:1 ratio of raiders to venoms, and I often find these days I'm having 3-4 raiders and only around 2 venoms.

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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Wed May 02 2018, 02:56

I like both, though I have more raiders than Venoms. For flayed skull, for example, I would probably lean towards 3x5 blaster squads in Venoms over 2x10 squads in Raiders for the same points.

I also like Venoms for Archon and Court. This unit draws a lot of hate, so being able to hide from chunks of their firepower and stack a -2 to hit with heightened reflexes can be very useful. This can have a psychological component, as the opponent sinks way too much firepower than its worth into this unit.

Obsidian Rose Trueborn with shredders is also fun, and have the same threat/troll factor.

To the OP, if you are trying to max out Trueborn, why not field them 7 strong, with 4 blasters and 2 splinter cannons? That’s a lot of diddly at 18”.
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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Wed May 02 2018, 14:12

I don't understand why people keep saying that the -1 to hit is better than the +4 wounds. Because it is clearly not.

I also use Venoms and Raiders. The difference is that you can put anti-tank weapons on a raider, where the venom has anti-infantry weaponry. For 10 man squads the tax you pay for transport is cheaper if you use a raider. The venom is faster and can hide behind smaller scenery, and for squads of 5 the transport tax is lower for venoms.

For carrying HQ/Court units I always use venoms, but you could as well stick them together in a raider with a squad of 5 wracks or whatever you use in CC.

In your case, I would look at my list and find out if you need more anti-tank weapons or anti-infantry weapons.

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PostSubject: Re: Raider vs Venom (again)   Wed May 02 2018, 14:21

@Ragnos wrote:
I don't understand why people keep saying that the -1 to hit is better than the +4 wounds. Because it is clearly not.

I also use Venoms and Raiders. The difference is that you can put anti-tank weapons on a raider, where the venom has anti-infantry weaponry. For 10 man squads the tax you pay for transport is cheaper if you use a raider. The venom is faster and can hide behind smaller scenery, and for squads of 5 the transport tax is lower for venoms.

For carrying HQ/Court units I always use venoms, but you could as well stick them together in a raider with a squad of 5 wracks or whatever you use in CC.

In your case, I would look at my list and find out if you need more anti-tank weapons or anti-infantry weapons.


It is better vs "Certain" things, like Plasma spam, it prevents Supercharge, or Orks due to BS 5+, and Heavy weapons that must move or BS 4+ IG spam, and finally Necrons boosting Tesla to 5+ instead of 6+

Over all for the most part Raiders are Tougher for sure, but there are some key times where a Venom could be better.

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