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 Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?

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Rashkasha
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PostSubject: Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?   Mon Apr 30 2018, 12:48

Just throwing some numbers out to see how this really works.
Lets say your Succubus is fighting against 6 Wyches with normal Hexatrii blade and str 4 drug. Round 3+ and a friendly Succubus near by, they hit on all 18 attacks and wound 12 times. You save 6 of them with 2 rolls of 6 to do 2 mortal damage on the Wyches. And you still die. So, if you keep getting charged or always fight overwhelming numbers, maybe it’s not that bad. It’s not helping her survive, but she will do a little bit of damage, tho this is best case where you are not shot up first or the damage is 2 or more.

Let us compare to another similar effect. Death Guard has the relic The Suppurating plate,which gives 2+ armor save and each time this model passes a saving throw in the fight phase, the enemy unit suffers a mortal wound on 4+.

The same 6 Wyches attacks a demon prince with this artefact. Still 18 hits, but now only 6 wounds. The demon prince takes 1 damage and saves 5. So the relic saves you 1 wound and you do 2.5 mortal wounds. This is helpful.

So what I learned from this is that there are other effects that do the same thing much better, and never charge such a demon prince with Wyches or other things that don’t go through armor.

Anyone had any experience with Treacherous Deceiver?
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?   Mon Apr 30 2018, 17:24

Haven't experienced it but mathematically it's pure garbage.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?   Mon Apr 30 2018, 17:25

I think the main issue is with the trait is that there are better wych cult warlord traits out there. Both of the warlord traits for the other two wych cults are way better, and the generic ones are also a lot more enticing. For example, why take treacherous deceiver when I could take quicksilver fighter? In many cases that guarantees that my succubus will be able to fight, instead of letting her maybe do a mortal wound or two when she's trying to pass saves. The extra drug effect is also better, and the mortal wounds on 6s trait is not bad with the triptych whip.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?   Mon Apr 30 2018, 23:48

IMO its best on a Succubus with HG's and +1 attack drug, this is 6 attacks with re-roll wounds, you are more likely to gain that 6.

Its use is very "niche" its great against a unit like Shield Captain on Bike with 3++ re-rolling 1 save a turn that will get into CC turn 1-2. Using this Succubus you will need 5's to wound, that means you will gain 1 roll of 5 and 1 roll of 6, then re-roll 4 dice for another chance to MW him, you should be able to get 1-2 MW's and 3-4 roll saves of 3++, re-rolling 1, for an average of 2.5 wounds. Against this a$$whole, and honestly for us not having smite thats really good.

Sadly... Lhamaeans and mandrakes are better at killing him.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?   Mon Apr 30 2018, 23:57

@amishprn86 wrote:
IMO its best on a Succubus with HG's and +1 attack drug, this is 6 attacks with re-roll wounds, you are more likely to gain that 6.

Its use is very "niche" its great against a unit like Shield Captain on Bike with 3++ re-rolling 1 save a turn that will get into CC turn 1-2. Using this Succubus you will need 5's to wound, that means you will gain 1 roll of 5 and 1 roll of 6, then re-roll 4 dice for another chance to MW him, you should be able to get 1-2 MW's and 3-4 roll saves of 3++, re-rolling 1, for an average of 2.5 wounds. Against this a$$whole, and honestly for us not having smite thats really good.

Sadly... Lhamaeans and mandrakes are better at killing him.

I think you're getting the traits mixed up.

Treacherous Deceiver inflicts a mortal wound on the attacker whenever the Succubus rolls a natural 6 on a save.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?   Tue May 01 2018, 00:09

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
IMO its best on a Succubus with HG's and +1 attack drug, this is 6 attacks with re-roll wounds, you are more likely to gain that 6.

Its use is very "niche" its great against a unit like Shield Captain on Bike with 3++ re-rolling 1 save a turn that will get into CC turn 1-2. Using this Succubus you will need 5's to wound, that means you will gain 1 roll of 5 and 1 roll of 6, then re-roll 4 dice for another chance to MW him, you should be able to get 1-2 MW's and 3-4 roll saves of 3++, re-rolling 1, for an average of 2.5 wounds. Against this a$$whole, and honestly for us not having smite thats really good.

Sadly... Lhamaeans and mandrakes are better at killing him.

I think you're getting the traits mixed up.

Treacherous Deceiver inflicts a mortal wound on the attacker whenever the Succubus rolls a natural 6 on a save.

I did get it mix up.. that.... is pointless, like 100% pointless.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?   Tue May 01 2018, 14:28

The only way to get any real use out of it is with a Sahrdnet & Impaler and the Cursed Blade relic where you do D6 mortal wounds to your killer when the model dies in combat. Send her after something like the Blood Angel captain with all the buffs and trap him in combat. That Captain now really doesn't want to be there as you'll keep them tied up for couple rounds, will potentially deal out MW's on saves and then more when you die, with a reasonable chance you'll kill the target you were fighting with.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?   Tue May 01 2018, 15:39

Wait.. does PfP 6+++ count? I dont think FnP saves count as saves actually. They have faq it in the past that it doesnt, did they faq it in 8th that FnP doesnt count as saves?

B.c if PFP 6+++ counts, a BA Smash Captain could do up to 14 wounds, thats 5 wounds 1 save then on the 4++ then 14 6+++

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?   Wed May 02 2018, 02:15

@Imateria wrote:
The only way to get any real use out of it is with a Sahrdnet & Impaler and the Cursed Blade relic where you do D6 mortal wounds to your killer when the model dies in combat. Send her after something like the Blood Angel captain with all the buffs and trap him in combat. That Captain now really doesn't want to be there as you'll keep them tied up for couple rounds, will potentially deal out MW's on saves and then more when you die, with a reasonable chance you'll kill the target you were fighting with.

Haha that actually seems super trolly and fun. The difficulty would be getting an infantry model into combat with the faster jump pack infantry, but the +2 movement drug would help with that a bit. Almost just want to use that build just to mess with a friend who plays blood angels.

I'm pretty sure you're right, fnp doesn't count as a save which is why it works vs mortal wounds.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?   Wed May 02 2018, 13:56

@amishprn86 wrote:
Wait.. does PfP 6+++ count? I dont think FnP saves count as saves actually. They have faq it in the past that it doesnt, did they faq it in 8th that FnP doesnt count as saves?

B.c if PFP 6+++ counts, a BA Smash Captain could do up to 14 wounds, thats 5 wounds 1 save then on the 4++ then 14 6+++
I must be missing something on how the BA captain works there, but no all such abilities aren't saves but are literally ignoring the damage inflicted.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?   Wed May 02 2018, 14:16

@Imateria wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Wait.. does PfP 6+++ count? I dont think FnP saves count as saves actually. They have faq it in the past that it doesnt, did they faq it in 8th that FnP doesnt count as saves?

B.c if PFP 6+++ counts, a BA Smash Captain could do up to 14 wounds, thats 5 wounds 1 save then on the 4++ then 14 6+++
I must be missing something on how the BA captain works there, but no all such abilities aren't saves but are literally ignoring the damage inflicted.

BA captain has a relic hammer that doesn't have -1 to hit and they can have a WL trait to do +1D so the hammer is S8, -3ap 4 damage, +1 to wound rolls, +1 attack when charge, re-roll hits.

But IDK how it is working with this Succubus setup if PFP 6+++ doesnt count as a save.

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?   Thu May 03 2018, 07:46

I would say that the PfP "ignores wounds" rather than "saves" them.
That said I love the fluffy nature that your blade gets stuck in her, she ingores the pain and smashes you right back!
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?   Thu May 03 2018, 12:56

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Imateria wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Wait.. does PfP 6+++ count? I dont think FnP saves count as saves actually. They have faq it in the past that it doesnt, did they faq it in 8th that FnP doesnt count as saves?

B.c if PFP 6+++ counts, a BA Smash Captain could do up to 14 wounds, thats 5 wounds 1 save then on the 4++ then 14 6+++
I must be missing something on how the BA captain works there, but no all such abilities aren't saves but are literally ignoring the damage inflicted.

BA captain has a relic hammer that doesn't have -1 to hit and they can have a WL trait to do +1D so the hammer is S8, -3ap 4 damage, +1 to wound rolls, +1 attack when charge, re-roll hits.

But IDK how it is working with this Succubus setup if PFP 6+++ doesnt count as a save.
Now I've caught up with you. Yes, Inured to Suffering is not a save, the WT will only activate on a 6 for the invuln.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Treacherous Deceiver, how bad is it?   Thu May 03 2018, 13:46

@Imateria wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Imateria wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Wait.. does PfP 6+++ count? I dont think FnP saves count as saves actually. They have faq it in the past that it doesnt, did they faq it in 8th that FnP doesnt count as saves?

B.c if PFP 6+++ counts, a BA Smash Captain could do up to 14 wounds, thats 5 wounds 1 save then on the 4++ then 14 6+++
I must be missing something on how the BA captain works there, but no all such abilities aren't saves but are literally ignoring the damage inflicted.

BA captain has a relic hammer that doesn't have -1 to hit and they can have a WL trait to do +1D so the hammer is S8, -3ap 4 damage, +1 to wound rolls, +1 attack when charge, re-roll hits.

But IDK how it is working with this Succubus setup if PFP 6+++ doesnt count as a save.
Now I've caught up with you. Yes, Inured to Suffering is not a save, the WT will only activate on a 6 for the invuln.

yeah, if Inured counted then HECK YEAH, Anti Smash Captain ! but sadly it doesnt.

BTW, that f Exclamation ing smash captain has melee killed my Bomber in 1 go before, there is a reason why 80% Imperial tournament lists has him currently lol.

Im 100% sure the "Keywords Imperial etc.. dont count" is because the super friends Supreme list, SmashCaptain, Celestine, Shield Captains on Bikes x3

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