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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 28 2018, 22:13

Can a Haemonculus take a Splinter Pistol via the index?

I ask because the index rule allows you to take options available in the index that aren't available in the codex. However, the Splinter Pistol wasn't actually an option for Haemonculi in the index - it was their default weapon.

Does that make a difference in terms of whether or not you're allowed to take it?

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 29 2018, 07:10

Shouldn't make a difference.

Seems odd to me to consider the default equipment not as an option. A lot of entries under the WARGEAR OPTIONS heading say something like "This model may replace its [default weapon] with a [new weapon]." I read that as saying either the default or new weapons are wargear options.

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 30 2018, 21:56

I'm rather curious about this myself. Mostly because I wanted to give my Haemonculus a Parasites Kiss, which specifically replaces a Splinter Pistol. In the Index, the Splinter Pistol was the default weapon, but in the Codex the Stinger Pistol became default. Without the Splinter Pistol, am I still allowed to give an Haemonculus a Parasites Kiss?

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 30 2018, 21:59

@Kantalla wrote:
Seems odd to me to consider the default equipment not as an option. A lot of entries under the WARGEAR OPTIONS heading say something like "This model may replace its [default weapon] with a [new weapon]." I read that as saying either the default or new weapons are wargear options.

I don't see how.

Surely the wargear options are those in the actual 'wargear options' section?

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2018, 03:03

The wargear options say something like:
"This model may replace it's [default weapon] with a [new weapon]."

That means there are options of either [default weapon] or [new weapon]. How would you interpret that as meaning only the [new weapon] is an option?

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2018, 09:12

@Kantalla wrote:
The wargear options say something like:
"This model may replace it's [default weapon] with a [new weapon]."

That means there are options of either [default weapon] or [new weapon].

No, it means the model comes with a [standard weapon] and can replace it with an [optional weapon].

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2018, 20:51

That seems like you are choosing to change the placeholder names in a way to suit your argument, by attempting to define the replacement as an option and the default with a different title.

My argument is:
1) The WARGEAR OPTIONS heading outlines the rules for the various wargear combinations a model is allowed to be equipped with.
2) Each combination of legal wargear is a wargear option.
3) Leaving the model with its default equipment is a legal wargear combination from the WARGEAR OPTIONS heading.
Therefore
4) The default equipment is a wargear option.

I'm not really following your argument. For some reason, you are deciding the default equipment isn't an option because it is listed outside of the WARGEAR OPTIONS heading, even though it is still referenced in the WARGEAR OPTIONS heading.

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2018, 23:31

@Kantalla wrote:
That seems like you are choosing to change the placeholder names in a way to suit your argument, by attempting to define the replacement as an option and the default with a different title.

From my perspective, though, this is exactly what you are doing. It seems you are being overly generous with what 'option' encompasses.

Also, in case it isn't clear, I am simply playing devil's advocate here. I do not want to gain an advantage through a dubious interpretation of the rules.

@Kantalla wrote:

My argument is:
1) The WARGEAR OPTIONS heading outlines the rules for the various wargear combinations a model is allowed to be equipped with.
2) Each combination of legal wargear is a wargear option.
3) Leaving the model with its default equipment is a legal wargear combination from the WARGEAR OPTIONS heading.
Therefore
4) The default equipment is a wargear option.

I'm not really following your argument. For some reason, you are deciding the default equipment isn't an option because it is listed outside of the WARGEAR OPTIONS heading, even though it is still referenced in the WARGEAR OPTIONS heading.

My argument is that a model's options are what it can actually take/buy in the wargear options section - not the wargear that comes with the model as standard.

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2018, 23:46

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
My argument is that a model's options are what it can actually take/buy in the wargear options section - not the wargear that comes with the model as standard.
What is the reason for that distinction?

Nothing in the wargear options section is compulsory, so you have the option of keeping the standard equipment.

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeWed May 02 2018, 09:39

@Kantalla wrote:

What is the reason for that distinction?

Nothing in the wargear options section is compulsory, so you have the option of keeping the standard equipment.

But that's the whole point - the standard equipment in the Index is not the same as in the codex.

I take it you're familiar with the flowchart in the designer's commentary? (If not, it's on the last page.)

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Let me try and follow it and hopefully you'll see the problem I have.

1) Does your model have a datasheet in a codex?

I think we can at least agree that the Haemonculus has a datasheet in the DE codex.  Wink

2) Are there wargear options for your model that only appear in the index version of its datasheet?

Yes.

---> Use the codex version of your model's datasheet, but you can choose to use the Index option for its wargear options.


Now, as I read this, you use the codex model - including all standard wargear - but also have access to everything in the 'Wargear Options' section.

Do you agree or disagree with this? If you disagree, could you explain where you think I've gone wrong?

Post edited; just to add some clarity - Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeWed May 02 2018, 11:36

I'd tend to agree. Where it says 'WARGEAR OPTIONS' I think it's reasonable to assume that it refers to the section of the datasheet with that heading. In other words, I think there is a difference between 'wargear' and 'wargear options'. In fact, the datasheet doesn't even use the term 'wargear' in respect of default equipment, but the term is used when calculating the model's point cost.

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeWed May 02 2018, 11:56

Your post makes sense, and there is nothing there I disagree with.

Where we differ is I think the wargear options heading describes the legal wargear options (which includes keeping the default wargear), and you think that only the replacements or extras count as wargear options.

For the Haemonculus, the Index says under the wargear options heading:
"This model may take items from the Weapons of Torture and/or Tools of Torment lists."

Battlescribe assumes you must replace the weapons. I don't think that really matters to the argument, but for simplicity below I'm assuming they are replacements.

That means the following combinations are allowed in the Index:
1) Splinter pistol + Haemonculus tools
2) Splinter pistol + Weapon of Torture
3) Tool of Torment + Haemonculus tools
4) Tool of Torment + Weapon of Torture

I see all of those as the wargear options allowed under the heading of the same name. You are seeing only half of 2 and 3, and both parts of 4 as wargear options.

Would you have a different view if the wargear options wasted some printing by saying something like "You may choose not to change the standard equipment"? That's already implied by the use of the word "may" for every option.

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeWed May 02 2018, 12:30

@Kantalla wrote:
Your post makes sense, and there is nothing there I disagree with.

Where we differ is I think the wargear options heading describes the legal wargear options (which includes keeping the default wargear), and you think that only the replacements or extras count as wargear options.

The issue there is that the standard gear is not the same as in the Index. And, in fact, the Wargear Options in the Index don't even mention the Splinter Pistol.

His only options are:
- This model may take items from the Weapons of Torture and/or Tools of Torment lists.
- This model may take a Crucible of Malediction.

Weapons of Torture:
- Hexrifle
- Liquifier Gun
- Stinger Pistol

(And Tools of Torment are all melee weapons.)

There is no option to take a Splinter Pistol.

@Kantalla wrote:

Battlescribe assumes you must replace the weapons. I don't think that really matters to the argument, but for simplicity below I'm assuming they are replacements.

That means the following combinations are allowed in the Index:
1) Splinter pistol + Haemonculus tools
2) Splinter pistol + Weapon of Torture
3) Tool of Torment + Haemonculus tools
4) Tool of Torment + Weapon of Torture

I see all of those as the wargear options allowed under the heading of the same name. You are seeing only half of 2 and 3, and both parts of 4 as wargear options.

The issue is that the Haemonculus now starts with a Stinger Pistol and neither the Codex nor the Index gives any option to take a Splinter Pistol - either in place of the Stinger Pistol or in addition to it.

The only way to get a Splinter Pistol is if you assume that the Haemonculus is allowed to start with Index wargear, which the flowchart makes no mention of.

@Kantalla wrote:

Would you have a different view if the wargear options wasted some printing by saying something like "You may choose not to change the standard equipment"? That's already implied by the use of the word "may" for every option.

I can't see how that would make any difference. The standard equipment of the Haemonculs (using its Codex datasheet) is a Stinger Pistol and Haemonculus Tools. If you choose not to change it, then you still won't have a Splinter Pistol.


Whatever you think, it might be wise to email GW and see if they'll add this to the next FAQ.

I would like you to be right, as I'd very much like to have the option of Parasite's Kiss on a Haemonculus. I'm just not seeing how you'd get it without straying from the parameters of their flowchart. No

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeWed May 02 2018, 12:57

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
The only way to get a Splinter Pistol is if you assume that the Haemonculus is allowed to start with Index wargear, which the flowchart makes no mention of.


Aaaaah.
I was having trouble following for a while,m but this is the part that makes sense.
Its whether or not the flowchart, when it says "Wargear Options" only refers to those things listed on a datasheet as "Options", and not just to other wargear they may have.

I fall down on that any wargear listed in the Index datasheet, whether its standard or optional, counts. COrrect me if I'm wrong, but one of the units this was specifically designed to address was the AUtarch with Warp Jump generator. That comes as standard on the Autarch in the Index version (because it lists different types of Autarch), so wouldn't be an "option".
But as I said, I see how that could be taken as unclear because of the phrasing, but I see it as meaning any wargear even mentioned on the datasheet.
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeWed May 02 2018, 13:07

@Squidmaster wrote:

Aaaaah.
I was having trouble following for a while,m but this is the part that makes sense.
Its whether or not the flowchart, when it says "Wargear Options" only refers to those things listed on a datasheet as "Options", and not just to other wargear they may have.

Yeah, sorry if I didn't articulate myself very well. Embarassed

@Squidmaster wrote:
I fall down on that any wargear listed in the Index datasheet, whether its standard or optional, counts. COrrect me if I'm wrong, but one of the units this was specifically designed to address was the AUtarch with Warp Jump generator. That comes as standard on the Autarch in the Index version (because it lists different types of Autarch), so wouldn't be an "option".
But as I said, I see how that could be taken as unclear because of the phrasing, but I see it as meaning any wargear even mentioned on the datasheet.

But since 'Autarch with Warp Jump Generator' is a separate datasheet to the regular 'Autarch', wouldn't it come under 'model with no datasheet in the codex'? (Meaning you'd use the Index datasheet for it.)

It's really weird because some models have stuff like Jump Packs as optional wargear, whilst others have them as separate datasheet entries. Neutral

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeWed May 02 2018, 13:42

I really feel like this is massively overcomplicating the situation when the intention behind the rules is very clear;

Did a unit have access to a piece of wargear in its Index version that is no longer available in the Codex?
If yes, you may still take it.

I can't imagine that any opponent is going to kick up a fuss about you taking a splinter pistol on a character, even in the relic form.
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol   Haemonculus with Splinter Pistol I_icon_minitimeWed May 02 2018, 23:59

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
The issue there is that the standard gear is not the same as in the Index. And, in fact, the Wargear Options in the Index don't even mention the Splinter Pistol.
OK - I finally follow where you are coming from.

So you are starting with the Codex datasheet, and checking with the wargear options heading in the Index to see if Splinter Pistol is an option. If you follow that approach then you would be right that you couldn't take a Splinter Pistol.

I don't think you should mix the datasheets like that. I think you should look at legal wargear options with the Index datasheet as a whole (including the option of not replacing the Splinter Pistol). Then compare that with the new datasheet as a whole to see if any options are now only in the Index. If so the flow chart would allow you to take the options only in the Index.

The wargear options heading generally doesn't make sense without other parts of the datasheet (specifically the standard equipment), which is why I think you need to evaluate the available options for each datasheet separately and not just apply the wargear options heading from one datasheet to the other.

As an aside, if the Index entry said something like replace Splinter pistol with Dark lance, would you also say you couldn't have the Dark lance because you don't have a Splinter pistol to replace with the Codex entry?

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