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Deekay
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PostSubject: Ur'ghul's   Wed Apr 25 2018, 10:38

How is everyone finding these little trolls?

15 points gets you 3 wounds, 5++, S4, 6x attacks on the charge hitting on 3's rerolling fails with Archon nearby. By my math 3.5 wounds dealt on T3 models. Shame they don't have PfP and the only obsession to help them being Poisoned tongue.

I fielded 3x riding with an Archon and Succubus in a Venom, they cleaned up in combat! Actually pretty good for keeping HQ's alive as they lost the character keyword.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Wed Apr 25 2018, 11:53

If you manage to charge with all of them (single roll for each, no pfp) they becomes good.
Unfortunately for that, not a solid unit. But I must say it, they're start to growing on me.
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Wed Apr 25 2018, 12:29

They would get effected by black heart obsession as well and gain innured to suffering, which can help out a little, especially with 3 wounds per model, with 3 of them you will benefit from it almost twice before they die.

For me that lack of ap is pretty disappoijnting, but you are forcing them to make a lot of saves!
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Wed Apr 25 2018, 17:58

I think I'd prefer Lhamaeans. They're not as durable but I think they're more likely to inflict meaningful damage (and on units other than guardsmen).

Or I could just take Mandrakes. Razz

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PFI
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Wed Apr 25 2018, 20:15

lhamaeans are certainly better for more durable one wound models or models relying on an invul because of the 4+ mortal wound but urghuls would certainly be better against a horde of weakass crap
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Wed Apr 25 2018, 20:22

@PFI wrote:
lhamaeans are certainly better for more durable one wound models or models relying on an invul because of the 4+ mortal wound but urghuls would certainly be better against a horde of weakass crap

Not by much, actually.

Assuming both are in range of the Archon, 4 Ur Ghuls kill about 9.5 guardsmen, whilst 4 Lhamaeans kill ~7.5. So the Ghuls do win, but to my mind killing an extra 2 guardsmen isn't worth being worse against basically everything else.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Wed Apr 25 2018, 23:38

I see Ur-Ghul as an hammer, where lhamaeans are more like a cutter. Adding some mortal wounds to the character (or sinilar) that your Archon is going to snipe.
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Thu Apr 26 2018, 06:26

So basically the Medusae is really the only court model that is objectively bad? Funny how these things are the only ones with no melee capability, yet they have power from pain. Would have loved that on Sslyth or Ur-ghuls instead.
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Thu Apr 26 2018, 10:38

@withershadow wrote:
So basically the Medusae is really the only court model that is objectively bad? Funny how these things are the only ones with no melee capability, yet they have power from pain.  Would have loved that on Sslyth or Ur-ghuls instead.  

Medusa would be interesting if you could actually fire them from a transport without losing out on the rerolls.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Thu Apr 26 2018, 11:25

And if you could take more than 3
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Thu Apr 26 2018, 18:53

This is one of the only models I don’t own. I’ve thought about getting 1-3 and then sending them in for GEQ combat. Even MEQ is not a bad option. Wyches are cheaper, yes. But at least this is a fresh look and feel. Still wanting to get some Beast units as well. Different tactics, and change of scenery and pace.
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Thu Apr 26 2018, 19:20

@Cerve wrote:
And if you could take more than 3

Wow I think you're right actually. Since they're single model units we can only take 3 of each because of the FAQ.

Yet another reason not to field a Court, I guess. That single model unit thing really kills the Court's viability. Kind of sad considering their rules were otherwise pretty decent this time around.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Thu Apr 26 2018, 20:43

I don’t think it does. Maybe for ITC, but that’s a bastardization of the rules. They being single models let’s then unlock extra transports, and be more survivable against enemy firepower.
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Thu Apr 26 2018, 20:50

@withershadow wrote:
I don’t think it does. Maybe for ITC, but that’s a bastardization of the rules.

I don't see how. Clearly GW thinks you should be fielding Courts made up of 1 each of the different models.

Yes, that's a terrible idea, but it's obvious that this is what GW wants us to do. Hence they the Courts aren't an exception to the rule of 3.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Thu Apr 26 2018, 21:43

Honestly I think the whole concept of the Court seems very ill thought out. To me it appears the idea of the court was driven by designers and not the writers.

Ur-Ghuls most of all don't seem to have a place in the court. Maybe it would work if it was the "pet" of an archon that you can detonate with a remote just for giggles. Apart from that, I think Ur-Ghuls should be a swarm unit for Coven. Like beasts for Coven.

Taking the rest of the court, there are two ways of making the court work (imo):
First, as supplementary HQs. Don't want to pay for a second archon in your batallion?
Get a court that consists of 2 models minimum.

Or use them as characters that you can replace your Syberites with. Surely a Medusae (with some tweaking) would be handy to have for your Kabalites. Similarly, you could add a Lhamean to Kabalites to buff their poison attacks and aid them in melee. And Sslyth serve best as an extended wound pool for the Archon.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Thu Apr 26 2018, 22:00

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Honestly I think the whole concept of the Court seems very ill thought out. To me it appears the idea of the court was driven by designers and not the writers.

I'm inclined to agree, though I think they're especially bad in 8th (not that the members are bad, just the rules are really awkward - like being limited to 4-per-detachment even if you have multiple Archons and not taking up any FoC slots).

It's annoying that there's no synergy with the court. You've got 2 dedicated-melee models, 1 dedicated-ranged model and one which is a bit of both.

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

Ur-Ghuls most of all don't seem to have a place in the court. Maybe it would work if it was the "pet" of an archon that you can detonate with a remote just for giggles. Apart from that, I think Ur-Ghuls should be a swarm unit for Coven. Like beasts for Coven.

Ur Ghuls seem like they should form a unit with the Archon (a bit like Ork Grots) and take wounds for him or something. Though even then they seem rather . . . dull, frankly. Like, is that the best an Archon can find as an exotic pet to show off? Could he not find a mini-Khymerae or something? As you see, they really seem out of place as part of a court.

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

Taking the rest of the court, there are two ways of making the court work (imo):
First, as supplementary HQs. Don't want to pay for a second archon in your batallion?
Get a court that consists of 2 models minimum.

Or use them as characters that you can replace your Syberites with. Surely a Medusae (with some tweaking) would be handy to have for your Kabalites. Similarly, you could add a Lhamean to Kabalites to buff their poison attacks and aid them in melee. And Sslyth serve best as an extended wound pool for the Archon.

Either of those would be preferable, but why not have both? Have courts be like the Necron Royal Court in 5th - where you can either leave them together as a unit or else split them off and make them squad sergeants.

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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Thu Apr 26 2018, 22:15

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
I'm inclined to agree, though I think they're especially bad in 8th (not that the members are bad, just the rules are really awkward - like being limited to 4-per-detachment even if you have multiple Archons and not taking up any FoC slots).

It's annoying that there's no synergy with the court. You've got 2 dedicated-melee models, 1 dedicated-ranged model and one which is a bit of both.

Yep, absolutely.

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Ur Ghuls seem like they should form a unit with the Archon (a bit like Ork Grots) and take wounds for him or something. Though even then they seem rather . . . dull, frankly. Like, is that the best an Archon can find as an exotic pet to show off? Could he not find a mini-Khymerae or something? As you see, they really seem out of place as part of a court.

Another problem with Ur-Ghuls is that they are the rats of the Dark City. It's common for the lowest areas of Commorragh to be infested with swarms of Ur-Ghuls and they are really nothing fancy.

Which self respecting Archon would use an oversized rat as pet??
That's why I thought they should be an affordable swarm unit. Or just make them go *splat* with the push of a button.

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Either of those would be preferable, but why not have both? Have courts be like the Necron Royal Court in 5th - where you can either leave them together as a unit or else split them off and make them squad sergeants.

Seems reasonable. Sure, why not.
I was only throwing around ideas.[/quote]

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Last edited by The Strange Dark One on Sun Apr 29 2018, 00:41; edited 1 time in total
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Fri Apr 27 2018, 11:30

Every other scene in the Path of... books have packs of Ur-ghuls shambling around in Archon courts.  They are basically like cats, just because there are millions of feral ones running around, doesn't mean there aren't crazy cat ladies with 20 as pets.  Using something more interesting to represent them would be fine with most folks, I think.  Even a Khymerae if you're not fond of their actual rules and aren't using them in your army.

The squad sergeant thing doesn't really make sense.  You want your poison-tasting hookers and burly bodyguards nearby, not taking leadership positions in your armed forces. So if I was writing the book, I would make the court a retinue that becomes the same unit as the Archon (and thus gets character targeting restrictions for the whole unit). So you get best of both worlds, they can catch bullets for your Archon but can’t be unceremoniously picked out and shot, which isn’t fun.

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@withershadow wrote:
I don’t think it does. Maybe for ITC, but that’s a bastardization of the rules.

I don't see how. Clearly GW thinks you should be fielding Courts made up of 1 each of the different models.

Yes, that's a terrible idea, but it's obvious that this is what GW wants us to do. Hence they the Courts aren't an exception to the rule of 3.

I don't think they even considered the Court when they came up with that guideline.  Anyway, 3 of each is enough, and them being individual models in no way invalidates them.  Sure, the Lhamean/Sslyth party bus may need to be a bit more interracial, but that's that much more fun, right? Razz

Courts, like beasts, are old legacy models.  They were added because they have models, and I doubt a whole lot of thought went into them.  Yes Medusae suck, yes Ur-ghul's best use is to die for the Archon when their venom crashes.  Sslyth and the Concubines are decent enough.

Yeah, it's annoying that all these "flavor" units (including Incubi) are relatively poor choices if you're min-maxing, but that's the case with most codices.  At least our suboptimal choices are failcast you probably didn't want anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Sat Apr 28 2018, 23:29

3 Urghuls are doing 18 attacks with ful rerolls to hit at S4, in an army that normaly wounds T3 on 4+.
The one who lose a lot is the Sslyth, the real loser here in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Sun Apr 29 2018, 02:22

Sslyth still seem solid to me, can take wounds for Archon and have good output in melee and a carbine at range. Medusae are the ones who seem lame.
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Sun Apr 29 2018, 02:42

@withershadow wrote:
Sslyth still seem solid to me, can take wounds for Archon and have good output in melee and a carbine at  range. Medusae are the ones who seem lame.

I'd agree with this. I'd suspect that Medusae got overnerfed because they were appearing in a couple of high-performing Ynnari lists for a while.
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Sun Apr 29 2018, 11:35

@Cerve wrote:
3 Urghuls are doing 18 attacks with ful rerolls to hit at S4, in an army that normaly wounds T3 on 4+.
The one who lose a lot is the Sslyth, the real loser here in my opinion.

Whilst I think they should have gone down by a few poins, having lost a wound, I'd still take Sslyth over Ur-Ghuls and Medusae.

@withershadow wrote:
Sslyth still seem solid to me, can take wounds for Archon and have good output in melee and a carbine at  range. Medusae are the ones who seem lame.

Agreed.

Medusae really do seem strange. As in, their design seems to run contrary to the purpose of the Court, the purpose of their weapons, and how DE play.

- In terms of how we play, we generally want to shoot from atop open-topped transports unless we intend to assault afterwards. Medusae have no combat abilities, so won't be assaulting, but don't get their rerolls unless they first disembark. And given the pitiful range of their weapons, any survivors are basically guaranteed to be able to assault them.

- The purpose of the Court seems to be to accompany an Archon, and whilst Medusae do get rerolls for being near him, the Archon gets nothing from staying with them. If he wants to sit back from a transport, then the Medusae are going to lose out on their rerolls. But if he gets out and within 8" of an enemy, he's going to want to assault afterwards, but the Medusae are useless in combat (and, since their weapons aren't pistols, they can't even fire those in melee).

- Indeed, Medusae seem like they're designed as a suicide unit (needing to get dangerously close to the enemy to attack), but in order to be even moderately effective they require an HQ to be nearby. Which seems rather counter-intuitive, especially in an army where the HQs cost ~75pts (rather different to IG throwing away a 30pt HQ).

I think removing the flamer rule from their weapons was a mistake. It makes them too reliant on an Archon being nearby (as well as forcing them to disembark with him just to match the average hits of a flamer), and also means that they don't have guaranteed overwatch hits. It seems like it was done just so that they could have the same aura ability as the other members of the court (though they could easily have been given rerolls to wound instead).

Or, if their weapon can't be a flamer, how about making it a Pistol? They still won't be good in combat, but now at least it won't prevent them from shooting. What's more, you won't need to add a pointless exception to the Obsidian Rose rule, needlessly excluding them from the increase in range.

Although, even then, a Medusae is 21pts and has 4 S4 AP-2 shots. A Kabalite Warrior with a Shredder is 14pts and has d6 S6 AP-1 shots that reroll to-wound against infantry. When you're limited to 4 Court models per detachment, is it really worth using them to get a weapon that seems barely better (possibly even worse) than one available on basic infantry squads?

(Sorry, this ended up far longer than I intended. Razz )

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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Mon Apr 30 2018, 09:14

I look at the court like this:

wargear:
Court of the Archon Ur'ghul : 15 pts

-Disregard the first result of "1" rolled when seeing if your archon is slain when his venom is shot down.
-If the first option is not used, the Archon gets an additional 6 S4 attacks hitting on 3 on the first turn he charges.
-If you are playing a mission that is using kill points, your opponent automatically adds 1 to his final score.
-This item can be taken in multiples up to three. The effects are cumulative.

And then just modify the points and the second bonus accordingly for the other court members.
Discount life insurance. Fleshy airbags for your venom with a possibility of bonus damage output.
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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Mon Apr 30 2018, 09:25

That seems like a very strange way to view the Court.

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PostSubject: Re: Ur'ghul's   Mon Apr 30 2018, 09:43

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
That seems like a very strange way to view the Court.
I'm a strange guy.
I find this view keeps my performance expectations realistic.
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