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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 04 2019, 19:06

All the fluff i read Archon can buy them as body guards, not that they are body guards. They have large amounts of fluff stating that the Incubi dont follow Kabal or care for them at all, just that they will pay well for their service.

Being a Kabal they are not.

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Rhivan
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 04 2019, 19:29

If it's one of the things they are hired for than yes one of their jobs in Dark Eldar society is being a bodyguard, which makes them funny enough... A bodyguard.

They are so closely tied to Kabals fluff wise that they could at least benefit from the keyword for mechanical benefits and internal synergy. You don't hear of Succubi or Haemonculi hiring Incubi. Nor do they share the aesthetic like they do with the Kabals.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 04 2019, 19:39

@amishprn86 wrote:
All the fluff i read Archon can buy them as body guards, not that they are body guards. They have large amounts of fluff stating that the Incubi dont follow Kabal or care for them at all, just that they will pay well for their service.

Being a Kabal they are not.


Sslyths, Medusae and Ur-Ghuls aren't any more Kabal than Incubi. Yet they have the Kabal Keyword. And they are definitely bodyguards. No, seriously. There is no point in arguing on that.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 05 2019, 00:44

Things have obviously changed, but back in 3rd edition the only way that you could even run Incubi was as a bodyguard for the Archon equivalent.
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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 05 2019, 02:45

I saw a little bit ago that someone mentioned having the 'two hits on a roll of 6' becoming on unmodified would help, and I agree. Hell, it would also make Drazhar more useful. Come turn 3, scoring 2 hits per roll of 4+ when Drazhar's there...

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 05 2019, 12:49

@Rhivan I'm not sure how much you have read into the fluff, but the Incubi are their own entity that exist outside of Kabals, Cults and Covens. They are organized in Brotherhoods and have their own religious cult. Incubi are mercenaries which Kabals like to employ due to their skills (mind you, Kabals just don't have the close combat proficiency that Cults and Covens have).

However, Incubi aren't just mercenaries. You need to pay them with bodies for thei rituals and they have their separate quarters. Bigger Kabals even give Incubi their own "holy ground" such as chapels and whatever happens in there is off-hands for anybody in the Kabal.

Because of their history and oaths, Incubi are one of the few individuals that can be trusted in the Dark City... as long as the terms of the agreement are met. Incubi that break the oath by killing their commanding Archon will be executed by fellow members of the Incubi Brotherhood, even when the murder was justified (like the Archon being a demon host).


But even apart from all the fluff reasons, giving the Incubi the Kabal keyword is not a fix at all. First, only the Kabals of the Poisoned Tongue and Black Heart would benefit from this. Second, Incubi have a massive conceptual problem that is not fixed with Kabal obsessions. They only excel against armored infantry, but such models often feature an invul save. High Toughness and 2+ wounds will also nullify the effectiveness of Incubi.

Giving Klaives 2 damage to infantry is one of the easiest fixes to make them more worthwhile.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 05 2019, 13:46

They may not be part of the kabals, but they are certainly bodyguards. Almost exclusively, in fact. (We rarely see them doing anything else in the lore.)

If I had my druthers, they'd get an ability to reflect their contracted nature. Something that still lets them benefit from their employer's aura abilities would be nice. Or even shrine specific abilities, but that's probably dreaming.
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Rhivan
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 05 2019, 19:59

I've read as much of their fluff as I can find as they are probably one of my favorite Dark Eldar units fluff wise (with a very cool combination of Blackguard & Executioners from WHF). I know they exist outside of kabals, I know their religion & practices. For instance I love that you can trust the Incubi.

I also know the justification Morr had for killing his Archon. I read the novel. I was pointing out in the scenario we are referencing to tell Amishprn that Incubi are bodyguards.

As for your mechanical benefits it is not a fix, but a minor buff. It would buff Incubi for being around an Archon (you know rerolling 1s that he gives to Kabal units) so right there every kabal benefits. As for the other Kabals not benefiting them besides that is fine. Kabalites don't really benefit from Black Heart but they still have the obsession. Lhamaens don't benefit a bit from Flayed Skull.

Personally I'd love Klaivexes to be 2 damage, I thought about mentioning it but I wanted to refrain from sounding too wishlisty as I already knew me wanting Incubi to benefit from Kabal obsessions would be controversial. Like things I would've loved to bring up were 2 dmg, a 6++ from something like ghostplate (which is the change I'm least interested in tbh) but combine that with my idea for Drazhar & Kabal I decided against it (and admittedly any of the ideas would logically make things more expensive)
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 05 2019, 20:07

Shrine specific abilities would be awesome but then we would probably have to look at doing the same for scourge ... And that would feel like splitting our already divided army into 5 different subfactions instead of the three we have now ...
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 05 2019, 20:10

And im pointing out, thats not their role in 40k 8th DE codex, they have MANY roles in the fluff (other than bodyguards) and bodyguard is not one of them on the table. We already have dedicated Body guards in game, i dont want a 5th bodyguard unit, i want a freaking killing machine.


Honestly, i would LOVED if we had a mercenary character with its own rules for them, Elite choice single unit Scourge, Mandrake, Incubi that buffed each of them respectively.

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2019, 15:26

A BLADES FOR HIRE Keyword on all of our merc units would be nice, with a Stratagem that lets a Detachment trade out BLADES FOR HIRE for the <SUBFACTION KEYWORD> of any given HQ in that detachment.

Thoughts?

I'm also of the opinion that Drazhar is criminally overcosted. He has the statline of a Space Marine Captain with slightly better movement, a worse invuln, a melee weapon worse than a relic blade, doesn't benefit from Obsessions and has a substantially worse aura.

For almost 25% more points. As a specialist Close Combat character.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2019, 17:28

Drazhar is overcosted b.c he can attack twice, GW over valued him and that ability due to character keyword and melee being "better" than shooting. The problem is he doesnt bring anything to any lists at all. If he had better attacks/damage as a solo hero, sure. But he isnt good at anything.

I'd rather him get buffed/changed than cheaper TBH.

Also, a specialist Detachment could help him and your idea could fit with that detachment.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2019, 18:08

I'd prefer a really cheaper Drazhar, as I could take 2 kabal battalions
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2019, 20:39

@dumpeal wrote:
I'd prefer a really cheaper Drazhar, as I could take 2 kabal battalions

I prefer another generic HQ choice and keep Drazhar a killing machine that is feared on the table.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2019, 20:46

@amishprn86 wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
I'd prefer a really cheaper Drazhar, as I could take 2 kabal battalions

I prefer another generic HQ choice and keep Drazhar a killing machine that is feared on the table.

It's not like we need it to be competitive, but good God would some cheap generic HQ options be nice for us. It's crazy that each of our factions only have access to one HQ choice outside of special characters.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2019, 21:01

We don't necessarily need more characters, just give the ones we currently have more weapon options and make their initial price cheaper. Succubus is at a pretty reasonable pts cost right now, there's no reason why archons and heamonculi can't be a similar pts cost. It would be also be nice to see some characters, especially the archon, go back to having more weapon options so we have a few more ways to kit them out.

As for incubi the fix to make them more competitive is very simple, they don't need a character to buff them, just a simple stat boost such as 2 damage weapons and/or base s4. Regardless I'll keep using mine occasionally as an archon escort just because they look good and it's a fun unit to use.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2019, 21:34

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
We don't necessarily need more characters, just give the ones we currently have more weapon options and make their initial price cheaper. Succubus is at a pretty reasonable pts cost right now, there's no reason why archons and heamonculi can't be a similar pts cost. It would be also be nice to see some characters, especially the archon, go back to having more weapon options so we have a few more ways to kit them out.

As for incubi the fix to make them more competitive is very simple, they don't need a character to buff them, just a simple stat boost such as 2 damage weapons and/or base s4. Regardless I'll keep using mine occasionally as an archon escort just because they look good and it's a fun unit to use.

We DO need other HQ choice. It's not normal that we can't field 2 battalion of a single subfaction without relying on special character we don't really want. Coven and cult are okay-ish, because they have a good special character, but kabal can't even rely on this.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2019, 22:36

I mean yeah that would be ideal, but I'm being realistic here. I don't see DE getting a major model update anytime soon, so the best we can hope for our characters is some reduced pts costs to make taking a bunch of archons to fill out a battalion easier.

And yeah you are correct about the issue with 2 battalions, but personally that just doesn't really bother me. A battalion plus a spearhead or outrider is pretty much always going to be enough for the options you want, and I almost always mix at least two of our subfactions so wouldn't have space for 2 battalions of the same faction anyway.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2019, 22:52

Why? CSM, SM, Necrons, GSC, SoB, Eldar, and IG all got new characters in the past 4 months. Its in the realm of possibility for DE to get one also.

At this point even harlequins could get another model.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2019, 07:57

The weird, niche new models we've seen so far in recent months have successfully shaken my cynicism. I'm willing to be hopeful again, lol.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2019, 10:18

I'm hoping this means that GW have finally figured out a cost-effective way of making single plastic miniatures. If so, there's no real barrier to having more DE models.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2019, 16:00

On the other hand, I've seen much more dark eldar players since the new codex. Maybe GW realised that good rules and new models is how you attract players.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2019, 17:09

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm hoping this means that GW have finally figured out a cost-effective way of making single plastic miniatures. If so, there's no real barrier to having more DE models.

I talk to a few people that make their own models. The costly part isnt the molds, materials, or machinery. Its the hours of design work and paying multiple artists.

With that said, one of my friends that make their own, newer and better laser etching is very costly up front, but you dont need master molds and can have less people working on the design, also its just save a file for later use or quick changes if needed (I think this is what GW has been doing for a couple years now).

I've seen a mold made this way, its really freaking always, he has problems b.c his (something to do with the eye on the laser, it cant make as smooth as details as he wants) so he cant do faces or small high detail. For a personal use machine thats fine, kinda like 3d printing, there are some really good ones and then the $200 for your hobby ones.



The problem is IMO, time. They have so many projects, so many units, so many armies, 1 machine just cant do it all in a year or two.


@dumpeal wrote:
On the other hand, I've seen much more dark eldar players since the new codex. Maybe GW realised that good rules and new models is how you attract players.

To add something to this.

Tom Kirby is the old CEO that didnt believe in rules, he wanted a simple core rules, units with limited rules, and the "Army" with the bulk of the rules. He wanted to sell models as a (Literally said this himself) "Model company" not a "rules company", and he also said "We work on armies when we feel inspired to" This lead to a lot of problems, 10yr old out of date armies, armies that are better than others, etc.. He didnt care about rules, a couple rules writers left b.c of it.

Then in mid 7th Kevin Rountree became the main guy, there are many rumors that he is the person behind Formations in 7th just to show "Players want rules, rules equal money". But he is the one that brought the spirit back into the game, social media, brought back old rules writers, youtube videos, the meme's, and redoing SoB, and he is the one that got us "Start collecting" and other few saving bundles, oh and bringing back specialist games.
Sadly he can only do so much b.c of GW's legal and investment problems.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2019, 22:21

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm hoping this means that GW have finally figured out a cost-effective way of making single plastic miniatures. If so, there's no real barrier to having more DE models.

I talk to a few people that make their own models. The costly part isnt the molds, materials, or machinery. Its the hours of design work and paying multiple artists.

One of the guys I play with has been up at GW a lot (his CWE army is featured in this month's WD) and he spoke to some of the designers. They said that the actual design of the model is fairly quick. The hard part is working out how to get it on the sprues, and that takes ages! So there's a cost involved in that but the actual cost of making the moulds is also horrendous.

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Rhivan
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions on incubi   Opinions on incubi - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2019, 23:08

@Ikol wrote:
A BLADES FOR HIRE Keyword on all of our merc units would be nice, with a Stratagem that lets a Detachment trade out BLADES FOR HIRE for the <SUBFACTION KEYWORD> of any given HQ in that detachment.

Thoughts?

I'm also of the opinion that Drazhar is criminally overcosted.  He has the statline of a Space Marine Captain with slightly better movement, a worse invuln, a melee weapon worse than a relic blade, doesn't benefit from Obsessions and has a substantially worse aura.

For almost 25% more points.  As a specialist Close Combat character.
I'm a fan of this as it does give some support to Incubi for a reasonable cost.

As for Drazhar I agree with you there although I'd prefer for him to be buffed to suit the points rather than get a points drop.


As for new models/characters for us... I dream that is the case as more characters means more toys to convert Very Happy (and rules are great too)
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