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 Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury

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Shride
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PostSubject: Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury   Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury I_icon_minitime24/4/2018, 18:06

I was looking at this due to another thread, and I came to an interesting conclusion, and wanted to check my logic here.

Hypothetical situation:

-Player 1 has a Blood Angels detachment in his/her army with a unit of DEATH COMPANY.
-Player 2 has a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment in his/her army.

-At the beginning of the first Battle Round, but before the First Turn, Player 1 spends 2 Command Points to activate Forlorn Fury.
-Player 2 spends 3 Command Points to activate Agents of Vect, rolling a 4 to counter it.
-At this point, it would seem that Player 1 can respond by spending 2 Command points to activate Forlorn Fury again, and Player 1 can continue to respond by activating Agents of Vect, until one of the players either relents, or one of the players (probably Player 2) runs out of Command Points.

Here's why I say this:
Given that you have not begun the first turn, you are not in a Phase, so neither the core rules nor Agents of Vect prevent Player 1 from using it again. As for the text in Forlorn Fury stating it can only be used once; well, given that Agents of Vect prevents that Strategem from resolving, that sentence also does not resolve, so Player 1 is free to activate Forlorn Fury again.

Is there something that I'm missing here, or is it a giant waste to try to prevent Forlorn Fury with Agents of Vect?
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury   Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury I_icon_minitime24/4/2018, 18:14

IMO the wording is clear. On a successful AoV activation the target stratagem is not resolved and cannot be attempted again. It is not resolved at all.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury   Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury I_icon_minitime24/4/2018, 18:16

Oh yeah I guess you just forgot the "cannot be activated again part". I did too.

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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury   Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury I_icon_minitime24/4/2018, 18:17

Specifically, it says it cannot be attempted again this phase (emphasis mine).  However, you are not in any phase at that point in the game, as the first turn has not yet begun.  That's where I draw the conundrum.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury   Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury I_icon_minitime24/4/2018, 18:41

Well Forlon Fury can only be used once... :-D Using AoV does not mean he didnt use it. :-D He just didnt resolve it.
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury   Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury I_icon_minitime24/4/2018, 18:56

The text that prohibits Forlorn Fury to being used once per battle is in the Strategem itself. If the Strategem doesn't resolve, neither does that text. So, as much as I'd like to, I can't agree with that assessment. Either all the text of Forlorn Fury goes off or none of it does.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury   Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury I_icon_minitime24/4/2018, 19:13

It was meant as a joke really. :-) Seriously now, it is one of the ambiguous things GW likes to give us. I will try to look into FAQ. I vaguely remember seeing something about phasing before 1st turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury   Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury I_icon_minitime24/4/2018, 19:19

@aurynn wrote:
It was meant as a joke really. :-) Seriously now, it is one of the ambiguous things GW likes to give us. I will try to look into FAQ. I vaguely remember seeing something about phasing before 1st turn.  

The closest thing is this entry Rulebook FAQ:

April 2018 Rulebook FAQ, pg 8 wrote:
Q: Is the Deployment step of a mission considered to be a ‘phase’
for the purposes of rules?
A: No.
Note that this means that the Strategic Discipline
matched play rule does not apply to Stratagems that are
used during deployment and they can be used as many
times as a player wishes, as long as they have enough
Command Points to pay for them and the Stratagem
does not explicitly say it can only be used ‘once’, or ‘once
per battle’.

Granted, this only addresses during Deployment, so not 100% that it's viable. And nothing seems to address how once per battle Strategems are affected by Agents of Vect.

Thanks for the clarity, GW. Razz
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury   Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury I_icon_minitime28/4/2018, 08:03

He can use it again yes, you both basically are just wasting CP's and whoever runs out first is the real loser.

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FattimusMcGee
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury   Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury I_icon_minitime30/4/2018, 14:24

This ones debatable I like it!


So, how I view it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) - The last sentence of FF says "This strategem can only be *used* once". So, when you play that card what're you doing? You're *using* your Strategem, regardless of it resolving or not.


- Player one uses Forlorn Fury
- Player two denies it
- Player on can no longer play that card as he used the strategem; resolved or not


That's my view/how my LFGS has been playing it. I'm certainly open to discussion on it, as for example I didn't think I could deny Forlorn until your earlier post lol
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury   Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury I_icon_minitime30/4/2018, 14:41

@FattimusMcGee wrote:
This ones debatable I like it!


So, how I view it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) - The last sentence of FF says "This strategem can only be *used* once". So, when you play that card what're you doing? You're *using* your Strategem, regardless of it resolving or not.


- Player one uses Forlorn Fury
- Player two denies it
- Player on can no longer play that card as he used the strategem; resolved or not


That's my view/how my LFGS has been playing it. I'm certainly open to discussion on it, as for example I didn't think I could deny Forlorn until your earlier post lol

The sentence stating it can only be used once is also negated by agent of vect. You just delay the outcome for 1 turn.
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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury   Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury I_icon_minitime30/4/2018, 19:02

I'm also a blood angels player, and to me there isn't any grey here and the answer is quite clear.   So let me see if I can help.
 
@Shride wrote:
Specifically, it says it cannot be attempted again this phase (emphasis mine).  However, you are not in any phase at that point in the game, as the first turn has not yet begun.  That's where I draw the conundrum.

Forlorn Fury is played "at the start of the first battle round, but before the first turn has begun" (direct quote from the strategem. in the BA codex)  

The only point of the phrase "before the first turn has begun" is really only relevant if you as the dark eldar player are going first (so he would have to play it before your turn, but we would still be in the first turn).

Playing Agents of Vect keeps the blood angels player from playing this again this turn, and he cannot play it in turn 2.   Even if one were to argue that you're not "in" the first turn yet.  The strategem (as quoted above) is only played at the start of the first battle round, so he would not be able to play it thereafter.

If you're not in the first turn, then the agents of Vect strategem cannot be played because you're either "before the battle" or "during deployment"

There isn't a "ghost phase" after those points before turn one starts.   So pick your poison, but all arguments lead to the fact that you would prevent the BA player from being able to play it again

@dumpeal wrote:


The sentence stating it can only be used once is also negated by agent of vect. You just delay the outcome for 1 turn.

See comment above whereby the Forlorn Fury can only be played at the start of the first turn.
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Rodi Sikni
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury   Agents of Vect v Forlorn Fury I_icon_minitime6/5/2018, 12:55

I think that the problem is here:

Use this Stratagem just after your opponent has spent CPs to use a stratagem, but before the effects of that stratagem are resolved. Roll a d6; on a 1 yout opponent's stratagem is resolved as normal. On 2-5 your opponent's CPs are refoundend, but the stratagem they were using is not resolved and cannot be attempted again this phase. On a 6 the stratagem the were attempting to use is not resolved, cannont be attempted again this phase and the CPs spent are lost. This stratagem cannot be used to affect Stratagems used 'before the battle' or 'during the battle'.

"before the effects of that stratagem are resolved" and "the stratagem they were using is not resolved" indicates that on the roll of 2-5 the Stratagem are efectibly played, and that Agent's of Vect just neutralices the effects of the stratagem. This is not a Magic 's counter-spell that make that the spell is not played, so when the BA player attempt to play FF again, he canno't because even if the text of the first FF has no effect, on the second FF still  is wrotten "You can only use this Stratagem once".

On the roll of 6 says "stratagem the were attempting  to use is not resolved", in this case AoV are not talking about the effects of the stratagem but the stratagem itself, and says that the stratagem "were attempting to use", not "were using" like in the previous case, so when the BA player attempt to use FF again, he could do it because in this case  AoV truly works like Magic 's counter-spell that make that the spell ot played, and is like no FF were used before.


So, in resume, my interpretation is this:

on a result of 2-5 FF were used by the BA player but their effects were not resolved, so the BA player gaint the CP expended but cannot use the stratagem again because FF says "You can only use this Stratagem once".

on a result of 6 BA player attempted to use FF but the stratagem were not resolved, the BA payer lost the CP expended but can try to use the stratagem again because the limitation of "one use per phase" is not active and the first FF was not truly used.

English is not my native language, so I have interpreted it like i were interpreted it if it were wrote on spanish, so if you think that it have committed some mistake on the interpretation i really appreciate that you could tell me xD
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