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Pistacchior
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PostSubject: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 24 2018, 15:44

So by rulebook and by the open topped rule we know that models inside a vehicle are influenced by the modifiers that affect the vehicle itself. The archon aura can be treated as a modifier to get those rerolls on embarked units?
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 24 2018, 16:54

only restrictions and modifiers thata affect the vehicle also affect the unit inside, so our reroll auras seem to be useless
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PostSubject: Re: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 25 2018, 11:48

As I read it, if the Archon is off the Raider, on foot, and within 6" of the Raider, then the Raider benefits from its aura to reroll 1s.
As such, any passengers firing from the Raider get the same bonus.
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Pistacchior
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PostSubject: Re: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 25 2018, 12:03

@Squidmaster wrote:
As I read it, if the Archon is off the Raider, on foot, and within 6" of the Raider, then the Raider benefits from its aura to reroll 1s.
As such, any passengers firing from the Raider get the same bonus.

yeah i was asking this
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Rashkasha
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PostSubject: Re: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 25 2018, 14:21

Clearly stated in the FAQ that units inside will not get bonuses from auras.
"Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability?
A: No."
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sejason
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PostSubject: Re: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 26 2018, 09:30

Thanks for clearing this, Rashkasha.
It's really confusing to me, as the entry in the Codex says otherwise, but who am I to question decisions from GW HQ ...

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 26 2018, 11:40

This comes down to what a restriction or modifier means in the open topped entry. Those are not clearly defined things in the rules, so there is some room for (mis)interpretation.

The examples in the rule mean movement and range effects do count for passengers, so penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons, advancing and firing assault weapons, firing from within 1" with pistols only and counting as falling back if the transport falls back presumably all count.

The FAQ entry means beneficial auras such as Overlord from an Archon don't count.

Based on those examples, I would imagine things like obsessions and stratagems should fall in the category of not affecting the passengers. This would essentially mean bad things apply, good things do not.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 26 2018, 11:47

I think the most sensible way to interpret the open-topped rule is "the embarked unit is treated as having performed all the actions of the transport, but is not otherwise on the table". So if the transport advanced or fell back, the embarked unit suffers the relevant restrictions. But they don't get caught in auras which affect the transport and wouldn't benefit from any stratagems or Obsessions which only target the transport, be they positive or negative.
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sejason
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PostSubject: Re: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 26 2018, 13:28

@Kantalla wrote:
This would essentially mean bad things apply, good things do not.

This sums it up quite nicely, thanks Very Happy

Though I'd argue about the Obsessions. You'd not get the re-roll wound rolls of 1 from Poisoned Tongue or the range bonus from Obsidian Rose?
I don't think that's how it should work, as those are bonus that apply to every single model in the detachment. Why should the gun of a Kabalite have a longer range outside of the transport?

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 26 2018, 16:56

They get their obsessions.

I can see both sides of the argument for the Archon's reroll 1's ability and I think it is most likely we cannot benefit from it as written. That being said the rules do state unless a model specifically states they do not benefit from auras and I think the writing is vague enough that it is reasonable for someone to think otherwise.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 26 2018, 19:40

@sejason wrote:
Though I'd argue about the Obsessions. You'd not get the re-roll wound rolls of 1 from Poisoned Tongue or the range bonus from Obsidian Rose?
I don't think that's how it should work, as those are bonus that apply to every single model in the detachment. Why should the gun of a Kabalite have a longer range outside of the transport?
Those are rules that are native to the passengers, so they would still get the benefit of their own Obsession.

When I say I suspect Obsessions don't work, I mean the passengers don't gain the benefit of the transport's Obsession. So an Obsidian Rose Raider wouldn't confer a range boost on Poisoned Tongue passengers for example. Pre-FAQ I had seen some suggestions of taking Flayed Skull transports with Poisoned Tongue passengers to give the passengers both Obsessions. I don't think that was ever meant to work, and am glad the FAQ shut down such silliness.

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PostSubject: Re: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 27 2018, 06:35

@Kantalla wrote:
Pre-FAQ I had seen some suggestions of taking Flayed Skull transports with Poisoned Tongue passengers to give the passengers both Obsessions. I don't think that was ever meant to work, and am glad the FAQ shut down such silliness.

I don't think, the Obsessions were meant to be used this way either.
But the wording on the Flayed Skull is really vague, they really should've put it more clearly.

Codex wrote:

In addition, enemy units do not receive the benefit to their saving throws for being in cover
against attacks made by models with this obsession that can FLY , or that are embarked
upon a TRANSPORT that can FLY .
Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for such models when attacking with Rapid Fire weapons.

Those are the parts that are leading to discussions.
Do they mean "models that are embarked upon a transport that can FLY" or do they mean "models with this obsession that are embarked upon a transport that can FLY"?
And who exactly is "such models"? Transports that can FLY? Models with this obsession that can FLY? Models with this obsession?
It's unclear and the best thing is to clarify this before with your friends (or tournament organizer).

After reading this passage again, you can stuff Kabalites from Poisoned Tongue into a Raider from Black Heart and the Kabalites would get the bonus from their Kabal Obsession (rerolls rolls of 1 to hit and no cover save for enemies) while the Raider'd get the 6+ FNP from its Kabal Obsession.
The rule does not state that the transport they're in has to share their obsession.

I would not do this for a simple reason: it'd confuse me more to keep track of which unit has which obsession than it'd be useful, really Wink
I'll stay with Black Heart or Poisoned Tongue for my Kabalites. Rerolling wounds is something that is quite rare so I will try it more often.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 27 2018, 07:57

It's entirely practical to have all your vehicles Black Heart and all infantry except one Archon as another. That's not too hard to keep track of, if you go down that route.

They did FAQ the Flayed Skull, so now you need both the transport and the passengers to be Flayed Skull to get the Obsession benefit. The original wording was a bit too vague, and now they mean something more restrictive than any reading of the original.

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PostSubject: Re: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 27 2018, 08:59

Ah, I didn't read that one.
Yes, its clearer now and fits in with me Smile

But as I'm not playing in a competitve environment, I won't mix Kabal Obsessions in this way.

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PostSubject: Re: Modifiers and open topped vehicles   Modifiers and open topped vehicles I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 27 2018, 11:58

@sejason wrote:


Codex wrote:

In addition, enemy units do not receive the benefit to their saving throws for being in cover
against attacks made by models with this obsession that can FLY , or that are embarked
upon a TRANSPORT that can FLY .
Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for such models when attacking with Rapid Fire weapons.

Those are the parts that are leading to discussions.
Do they mean "models that are embarked upon a transport that can FLY" or do they mean "models with this obsession that are embarked upon a transport that can FLY"?
And who exactly is "such models"? Transports that can FLY? Models with this obsession that can FLY? Models with this obsession?
It's unclear and the best thing is to clarify this before with your friends (or tournament organizer).

After reading this passage again, you can stuff Kabalites from Poisoned Tongue into a Raider from Black Heart and the Kabalites would get the bonus from their Kabal Obsession (rerolls rolls of 1 to hit and no cover save for enemies) while the Raider'd get the 6+ FNP from its Kabal Obsession.
The rule does not state that the transport they're in has to share their obsession.

A lot of seemingly confusing rules can be easily resolved by asking three simple questions.

Who?
models with this obsession.

What?
Gain rerolls with rapid fire weapons and ignore cover.

When?
When they can fly or are embarked upon a transport that can fly.

Many things become much clearer when viewed through this lens. If you aren't able to answer the question, or it seems like you're answering multiple questions, then you're probably misinterpreting something.

Your second passage I assume is talking about Flayed Skull (Rerolls and cover) being in non-Flayed Skull transports. Before, you could indeed do this. However, due to all the (imo unnecessary) confusion over the topic, GW answered the question and actually mini-nerfed Flayed Skull, because the new rule specifies that the FS riders must be in a FS transport to get the bonus. Play with fire and get burned, I guess?
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