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RedRegicide
Wych
RedRegicide

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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Wed May 30 2018, 14:12

Wow I messed up those rules.

Could’ve sworn Lawrence used it to re roll 1s. Should’ve read it myself.

I think they are still good, but not nearly the tanks I was playing them as

Edit: he confirms in the comments he used it incorrectly. My bad

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Elfric
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Wed May 30 2018, 18:07

Grots costt 15 quid each over here. I suspect that's why people aren't running groups of 10, like it should be a simple matter

I would like to get some grots. Rat ogres seem an obvious, varied and cheaper option
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Wed May 30 2018, 18:17

I run 10, but i used Ogres for mine and i own 18 of them lol

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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Wed May 30 2018, 20:28

My talos have been great! They tanked 3 custodes bikes and then slaughtered them in return. My grotesques have also been great! They can mulch a wide variety of targets. Adding Urien just widens that list. If I’m using one, I’m using the other. Why limit yourself?
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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Thu May 31 2018, 17:16

@Burnage wrote:
@RedRegicide wrote:
Why don’t more people run grot mobs?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's because the models are a pain to get hold of or convert. Buying a unit of ten straight from GW would cost £150 and consist of ten copies of the exact same model...

This is exactly what's keeping me from getting Grotesques. I would love to get some, but they are just too expensive (in euro's, not points), and are all the same. I would like to get some conversion ideas, but I suck at converting. :/
Before I get Grots, I would need a few things:
- Good bases
- Inspiration to convert those into several different looking Grots
- Bits and stuff to convert them into Grots
- All the above for less money than regular Grots.
... I guess I won't be fielding Grots soon, since most conversion ideas I find rely on having a lot of Talos/Cronos spare parts, and I don't have those yet either.

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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Thu May 31 2018, 17:23

A single Talos kit combined with a box of large base models like Ogres, Minotaurs, Skaven...Ratmonster...things....whatever..... that'll give you enough bits to build a Talos and convert 3-4 Grotesques.
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Soulless Samurai
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Thu May 31 2018, 17:27

@lcfr wrote:
A single Talos kit combined with a box of large base models like Ogres, Minotaurs, Skaven...Ratmonster...things....whatever..... that'll give you enough bits to build a Talos and convert 3-4 Grotesques.

Yeah, but if you want to convert enough Grots for a unit of 10, that's 3+ Talos kits, plus whatever models you need for the actual Grotesques.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Thu May 31 2018, 20:20

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@lcfr wrote:
A single Talos kit combined with a box of large base models like Ogres, Minotaurs, Skaven...Ratmonster...things....whatever..... that'll give you enough bits to build a Talos and convert 3-4 Grotesques.

Yeah, but if you want to convert enough Grots for a unit of 10, that's 3+ Talos kits, plus whatever models you need for the actual Grotesques.

But if you already have Talos boxes its not a problem, i have 6 Talos Boxes lol

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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Thu May 31 2018, 20:27

I don't really care how many boxes of Talos or Rat Ogres someone needs to buy to realize their Grotesque dream, I''m just content to say:

Hey, whoever you are, you can do this with some greenstuff, a Talos kit, and a big ogre sized model kit. It's very doable, even if you're not extremely well versed in converting or use of greenstuff, and there are a ton of people online who will help walk you through anything you need help with, so don't be dismayed.

When you get the boxes you get the boxes, no rush. But yeah obviously if you want to convert 10 Grotesques you have to start somewhere....you can have fun 'just' fielding 3-4 of them while you scrounge up for more kit.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Thu May 31 2018, 20:55

I dont really see the issue here. If you are going to bring Talos, you need to bring a unit of them for best efficacy, which means 3 boxes anyway. That gives you more than enough extra bits to convert 10 Grotesques. The most popular base, Crypt Horrors, are what, 30 quid for a box of 3? And are frequently found online cheaper since they are in one of the starters.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Fri Jun 01 2018, 07:36

I have 12 modified Grots in this way, and never used any green stuff. It's damn easy to get them, even for one who is not relly into conversions.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Fri Jun 01 2018, 09:17

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@lcfr wrote:
A single Talos kit combined with a box of large base models like Ogres, Minotaurs, Skaven...Ratmonster...things....whatever..... that'll give you enough bits to build a Talos and convert 3-4 Grotesques.

Yeah, but if you want to convert enough Grots for a unit of 10, that's 3+ Talos kits, plus whatever models you need for the actual Grotesques.

I think I bought 5 Taloi, 4 boxes of Crypt Horrors and 2 boxes of Stormfiends. From that I'm able to build 12 Grots, 5 Cronos (Cronoi?) and 6 Talos. That's about 1400 points minimum and cost me about £250, which by 40K standards isn't too shabby.

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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Fri Jun 01 2018, 13:53

I got lucky with my 10 grotesques. This was a couple of years ago, but on eBay I found a listing for 10 crypt horrors with circular bases for $70. I already had 3 Talos kits, so it worked out.

I get it though that this can be hard to do, and expensive now that we are the hot new flavor. Be patient, watch eBay, check for discounts at your FLGS.

Grotesques are an amazing unit, and running them in 10 is very satisfying to say the least.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Thu Jun 28 2018, 23:31

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@lcfr wrote:
A single Talos kit combined with a box of large base models like Ogres, Minotaurs, Skaven...Ratmonster...things....whatever..... that'll give you enough bits to build a Talos and convert 3-4 Grotesques.

Yeah, but if you want to convert enough Grots for a unit of 10, that's 3+ Talos kits, plus whatever models you need for the actual Grotesques.

I think I bought 5 Taloi, 4 boxes of Crypt Horrors and 2 boxes of Stormfiends. From that I'm able to build 12 Grots, 5 Cronos (Cronoi?) and 6 Talos. That's about 1400 points minimum and cost me about £250, which by 40K standards isn't too shabby.
5 Cronos! Lol, are they able to be converted into Talos? At least 3 of them for 3 units of 3!
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Lost Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue Jul 17 2018, 11:12

I use two 5 x Grot units in WWP = 3cp´s. Bring em in on turn two, re-rollable charge and bam! Right in the enemy lines. I also use Talos, three 2 x Talos units and there is no other obsession, than Prophets of Flesh people. 4++ with 6+ FNP has been CLEARLY the best option i have played with.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue Jul 17 2018, 12:45

Recently I used 9 Grotesque and a Haemonculus against tau. Shocked them via strategem in front of his lines. They didn't kill anything but only because he surrendered end of turn three because he didn't manage to do some significant damage (and I killed his troops left and right).

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withershadow
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Wed Jul 18 2018, 00:48

@Lost Vyper wrote:
I use two 5 x Grot units in WWP = 3cp´s. Bring em in on turn two, re-rollable charge and bam! Right in the enemy lines. I also use Talos, three 2 x Talos units and there is no other obsession, than Prophets of Flesh people. 4++ with 6+ FNP has been CLEARLY the best option i have played with.
I don’t like this plan at all for several reasons.

1. Can’t deep strike turn 1, so they aren’t soaking up enemy firepower.
2. Costs 3 CPs.
3. High chance of failure on charge roll even with reroll.
4. Most importantly, can’t use screaming jets to guarantee alpha strike with Ravagers.

All in all, I rate it a D-.
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Lost Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Wed Jul 18 2018, 07:56

Well Sir, have you actually PLAYED with it? Well, i have about 5-10 times and it causes such a ruckus in the backlines, that even if they fail the charge, they are a problem. I rely on the Ravager´s 36" range to get me the first kill. Of course, if the plan is just to keep the Ravager safe for a round, that can work too, but i used Screaming Jets in my last game in the previous tournament and it really didn´t work for me...
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Wed Jul 18 2018, 08:31

I mean, 36” range won’t save you from 48” lascannons or stupid range earthshakers that ignore line of sight. My primary army is Krieg with a pinch of Cadia, so for good or ill, I analyze everything from the perspective of what would threaten my Guard. Backlines are not something I’m overly concerned about, because my cheap and plentiful heavy weapon squads minimize/eliminate backfield deep strikes (and if I do leave a gap, have fun killing one <50 point unit per turn). Grots are fast enough that by turn 2 they are close enough to be within 9” of enemy lines (and that’s if the opponent turtles up), so the CP use seems unnecessary. Being shot for an extra turn is not a problem since that’s 2/3rds of their job as far as I’m concerned. I also forgot #5 reason why I don’t like that plan, no nearby Urien/Haemonculus to make them that much tougher and either stronger or immune to overwatch with Vexator mask. Seems like if you want a backfield deepstrike distraction unit, Mandrakes can do the job for no CPs. Their ranged attacks make them an instant threat to everything, and a stacked lightning reflexes for -2 makes them ludicrously difficult to deal with.

But if the deep strike Grots works for you, that’s great. Any specific anecdotes you could share? And I’m curious how screaming jets didn’t work for you. They have been amazing for me. The opponent doesn’t know where in my DZ they will arrive, so he must spread his long range support elements in order to cover all eventualities. This opens them up to the Ravagers deploying in such a way that they can deal with immediate enemy AT threats while being out of range of the rest. If the opponent clumps up their AT, the Ravagers can deploy away from it all entirely and just bully the infantry. It’s such an amazing stratagem.
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Lost Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Wed Jul 18 2018, 13:24

I would love to use both at the same time, to DS one Ravager and one Grot unit. After the 4++ came in the form of Prophets, i´ve had really good runs with the DS Grots, only army, that i couldn´t even scratch, was Repulsor heavy marine list with Guilly babysitting. All other armies i´ve faced, will have to focus on them or get shut down for a while. I haven´t faced a tournament IG yet, so they might cramp my style...

- LV
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Elfric
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Sat Jul 21 2018, 10:28

Talos are amazing right now if you run them with PoF. Right now i'm running 3 with a Haemo, Archon and Cronus running up the field with them, buffing them. If you can get them into combat 2-3 of them will be handle and bring down a Knight, which I think are the most powerful faction right now.

Deep striking charge units is really risky now, even with re-rolls to charge. Less risky with something like Harlequins because a Shadow seer can move them another 8 inches in the psychic phase, but D/S should primarily be for Ravagers, Reapers and Raiders.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Sun Jul 22 2018, 10:01

No unit from any DS can move after that. Neither the Shadowseer can do it, from big FaQ
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Elfric
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Sun Jul 22 2018, 12:10

Are you sure, I thought the Shadowseer can use Twighlight Pathways in the Psychic phase to move a squad of clowns that have deepstriked, another 8 inches.
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Sun Jul 22 2018, 13:05

I’m with LV on this one. Love me some DSing grots. I usually DS a 7 man Grot unit and a 20 man wyche unit on T2 or T3 while my 6 Talos push upfield with heamie/urien support. Yes rerollable 9” charges are risky, but I’m ok with that, and DSing lets me apply pressure exactly where it’s needed. Sometimes I DS one unit into my own deployment zone if someone has overextended thinking they can mop up my little 5-mans.

And the rulebook FAQ seemed pretty clear to me that anything arriving as reinforcements can’t, through any means, move closer (GSC being the one specific exception). So practice rolling those 9’s Razz
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phdx
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Mon Jul 23 2018, 15:55

Not a fan of DSing grots in general, though I've seen it be situationally OK. My main quibbles:

1. Locks you out of Screaming Jets, which you really want to be using to shield any Ravagers you can't deploy out of LOS from T1 shooting against a shooty list. Against an assault-oriented list, you're rather have your grots on the table any day to screen your shooty elements or just clobber things with countercharge.

2. The biggest feature of grots is being obnoxiously hard to kill for their points while moving fairly quickly and hitting hard. DSing diminishes this role as a distraction unit.

3. When/if your opponent plays savvy and screens your grots out of a good DS location, it looks really embarassing when you could have just run up the center of the board shoving stuff off of objectives while soaking hundred/thousands of pts of fire.

As for Grots vs. Talos:
1. Grots are a stronger scoring unit and more durable per point
2. Talos are generally better at killing things (HWB blasters are great for chip damage on otherwise hard to crack vehicles (knights with ions shields rotated, tesseract vaults as the big 2, Macro scalpal hits tear up high quality units badly, chainflails are similar to grots).

The niche of grots (extremely durable unit to advance up the board and exert strong melee pressure on objectives) is generally not well replicated by other units in our codex, so in a vacuum they are my first choice to build around.

It is noteworthy that Talos can be somewhat easier to build a detachment around (3 Talos spearhead, where an equivalent points grot vanguard will require MSU grots which is kind of lame for stratagem purposes). For a battalion, wracks work similarly to (much) worse grots, so if I'm building up a Coven army from scratch I'd start with Talos over grots.
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