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Frowny
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PostSubject: Grots vs Talos   Mon Apr 23 2018, 16:13

Hey there,

I was considering a large block of something scary to rush up the center of the board. Seems like it might distract fire from squishier targets on the fringes. But in order for such a force to work synergistically with the rest of the army, it has to be relatively fast so they can't just deal with it on Turn 2-3 after shooting down all my raiders/venoms/reavers.

10 Grotesques +Urien, in WWP
10 Grotesques+ Urien, move, advance, ?fire and fade foward
3 Talos + Urien, Move, advance, fire and fade forward.
30 Wracks + Urien or a Heamunculus-Clearly the most attacks, definitely the slowest, works poorly with strategems, not multiwound so less likely to distract heavy weapons, but they are troops.

All are about 400pts.

First question: Can you fire and fade something that doesn't have a gun?

Grots have more attacks, more wounds, and are probably sturdier (100 pts buys you 12 T6 4++ wounds, 100 pts in talos only buys you 7 T7, 4++ wounds), but you lose out on the ranged weapons.

Has anyone had any luck with a coven heavy-list like that, possibly using them as a distraction or a must-deal-with mid-board threat?

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Voidhawk
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Mon Apr 23 2018, 16:28

@Frowny wrote:
First question: Can you fire and fade something that doesn't have a gun?

No. You can only Fire and Fade if you actually shoot something, so if you have no gun (or are out of range of your Liquifier) you're out of luck.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Mon Apr 23 2018, 16:49

Yeah problem with fire&fade is you're going to get yourself outside of the haemonculus aura which is not great.

I have limited experience with coven units, I only just ran my first talos this past weekend and it didn't do a whole lot. I can definetly say though that it felt slow, by the time it was up in range to assault anything the game was already swinging in my favor, and my opponent didn't waste any firepower on it as he was much more scared of raiders full of warriors and ravagers. WWP might be a good way to bring them in, you may not make your charge on the turn they show up but you can drop them right up in your opponent's face where he's going to have to deal with them. I usually hate charging from deep strike, but grots can actually fail their charge and not die immediately unless your opponent throws a lot of firepower on them.

10 sounds like a very big unit to deep strike though. I'd go down to somewhere around 6-8.

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Martyr
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Mon Apr 23 2018, 17:30

Whats about:

Heamonculus with Mask
Urien
4 Grots

all in a Raider?

385 points
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Mon Apr 23 2018, 18:24

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Yeah problem with fire&fade is you're going to get yourself outside of the haemonculus aura which is not great.

This isn’t really true. You can still keep them in range of the aura due to the Talos base sizes, you don’t even have to advance if you don’t want to.

Given the gun restriction, you can try a trio of Talos rushing forward with a Haemonculus (and maybe Cronos?) behind. To avoid being outflanked and getting the Haemonculus sniped out, you can anchor this formation on both sides with a Raider of Wracks or Grots. The raiders would also get the T bonus, so it’s one big beefy block.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Mon Apr 23 2018, 21:57

Agree, Talos with Fire&Fade move of 8+D6+7", where Haemi is 7"+D6". If you have 3 Talos you can just leave one behind two and keep the 6" buff-range from the Haemi.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Mon Apr 23 2018, 22:36

The Talos uses the large flying base, right? So that’s 2.34 inches, plus the 6” aura range means you still catch them as long as they didn’t advance further. Move he Haemonculus first, the Talos can fly over him now.
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 12:50

Why don’t more people run grot mobs? I’ve run two groups of 5 or 1 group of 10 recently and it is great

Prophets of flesh, the reroll 1s for invuln warlord trait and lightning fast make them absolute monsters. They don’t even have to make the charge because then they are a great distraction for all your paper boats

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 13:30

@RedRegicide wrote:
Why don’t more people run grot mobs?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's because the models are a pain to get hold of or convert. Buying a unit of ten straight from GW would cost £150 and consist of ten copies of the exact same model...
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 13:31

I’d counter with crypt horrid but those are Only a little cheaper before conversion costs. That’s a fair point

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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 14:00

Putrid Blightkings with Talos spare parts are just perfect. I love mine anyway.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 14:12

@RedRegicide wrote:
Why don’t more people run grot mobs?

I think plenty of people do! I ran 2 units of 4 in the LGT, each with a Succubus and a Haem/Urien, in Red Grief Raiders. They were my star unit in pretty much every game.

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UlrikTheSlayer
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 15:06

Can't use Lightning fast on Haemonculus Coven...
If they killed your raider you were losing at least 1...not good.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 15:52

@UlrikTheSlayer wrote:
Can't use Lightning fast on Haemonculus Coven...

Not sure what you're saying here? I wasn't suggesting that.

Quote :
If they killed your raider you were losing at least 1...not good.

1 in 6 chance of explosion followed by 1 in 6 chance of a death and I have CPs to re-roll if needed. Not really something that bothered me.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 16:17

You can't use lightning fast reflexes if you don't shoot. And you can't shoot if no enemies are in range. Shooting is a requirement to trigger the strat

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 16:29

@colinsherlow wrote:
You can't use lightning fast reflexes if you don't shoot. And you can't shoot if no enemies are in range.  Shooting is a requirement to trigger the strat

Are you thinking of Fire and Fade here?
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 16:46

@RedRegicide wrote:
Why don’t more people run grot mobs?

I can only speak for myself, but I've never liked pumping a lot of points into a single, large unit.

I'm also not a fan of having big, unwieldy blobs of infantry in my DE.

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BlastaRasta
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 17:59

@RedRegicide wrote:
Why don’t more people run grot mobs? I’ve run two groups of 5 or 1 group of 10 recently and it is great

Prophets of flesh, the reroll 1s for invuln warlord trait and lightning fast make them absolute monsters. They don’t even have to make the charge because then they are a great distraction for all your paper boats


Its reroll 1s of FNP not the invuns btw
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 18:39

If you wanna run Grots on Raiders, bring in an Ur-Ghul each.

Anyway I'm another one who love footslogging Grotesques.
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Nogrim
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 19:45

@RedRegicide wrote:
Why don’t more people run grot mobs? I’ve run two groups of 5 or 1 group of 10 recently and it is great

Prophets of flesh, the reroll 1s for invuln warlord trait and lightning fast make them absolute monsters. They don’t even have to make the charge because then they are a great distraction for all your paper boats

i'm planning to do this as soon as i can afford to do it. i've currently got no coven other than two old school haemonculi, i was leaning toward 3 groups of 3 to fill out a coven detachment. that said i hadnt thought of putting them in the WW so now im wondering if getting two talos is worth the points sink.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 20:04

Honestly, it depends on the match up, Talos are more of Jack of all Trades, they have FLy so can attack Flyers, they can have good guns, they can have 2D melee, they can have 10 attacks each instead, so you are paying to do more roles, where
Grots have 1 role, Anti-infantry. Grots for general anti-infantry aka against 0 tanks, 0 flyers, 0 T8, are much better, they have more wounds, same AP with more attacks so the 2D doesnt matter (15 attacks vs 6, or 15A vs 10A).

Tl;Dr Grots are better Anti-Infantry, Talos are Jack of all Trades

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Tue May 29 2018, 21:53

@Burnage wrote:
@colinsherlow wrote:
You can't use lightning fast reflexes if you don't shoot. And you can't shoot if no enemies are in range.  Shooting is a requirement to trigger the strat

Are you thinking of Fire and Fade here?

Yes! I went full special!

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Wed May 30 2018, 01:00

Grots for chaff, Talos for heavy stuff. That is why I don't care for the chainflail and just go double scalpel.

I prefer the Grots on foot, they move fast enough, and look scary so draw the enemy's firepower. The amount of fire they absorb is actually more valuable than any kills they inflict.
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Wed May 30 2018, 07:37


Quote :
If they killed your raider you were losing at least 1...not good.

1 in 6 chance of explosion followed by 1 in 6 chance of a death and I have CPs to re-roll if needed. Not really something that bothered me.[/quote]

The Raider don't have to explode for you to loose models, so it's 1 in 6 for each model transported.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Grots vs Talos   Wed May 30 2018, 09:02

@Rashkasha wrote:

Quote :
If they killed your raider you were losing at least 1...not good.

1 in 6 chance of explosion followed by 1 in 6 chance of a death and I have CPs to re-roll if needed. Not really something that bothered me.

The Raider don't have to explode for you to loose models, so it's 1 in 6 for each model transported.[/quote]

Oops, yeah. You're right. Brain fart there...

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