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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 01:06

Thinking about the Stratagem that allows you to shoot at a character, even if it is not the closest, and I’m thinking about the most damage possible. I’m not good at math hammer, but would someone be up to the task of seeing which loadout for 3 talos would be the most effective?

18 splinter cannon shots at long range
36 splinter cannon shots at rapid fire range
6d3 haywire
6d6 stinger pod
6 heat lance

I think those are the options available. One of those should be a decent option to assassinate a bubble wrapped character.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 02:59

Tantalus is best with this..... lol

It needs to be Dark Creed, and Talos IMO are best as Prophets of Flesh

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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 04:11

Let’s say that I don’t own a tantalus. What types of numbers are we looking at?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 04:15

It has 2 guns, both the same (so can snipe 2 characters at once), Assault 6 S8, -3ap 2D, total 12 Shots

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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 04:17

That’s really good. I’ll get one eventually. But what talos loadout would you think is best?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 05:15

IDk, its a neat idea, but with 4+ BS its not very reliable.

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Elfric
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 09:38

Isn't a Tantalus a bit ott when you could deepstrike a Ravager with triple disintegraters to take out a HQ
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 09:41

@Elfric wrote:
Isn't a Tantalus a bit ott when you could deepstrike a Ravager with triple disintegraters to take out a HQ

Ravager cant get sniper, its a coven stratagem.

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Elfric
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 12:39

Ahh I didn't know that. I really like the Tantalus and have come close to buying it but 400pts seems way too much. Is the Reaper any good, Forgeworld have temporarily sold out
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 13:44

I have not tried it, but I would imagine 3x talos with heat lances could shred most characters barring primarchs...

6 shots, so expect 3 to hit. Wounding on 3's (or 2's on IG/Eldar), forcing invul which we can call a 4++... that should give one solid hit to go through.... so 1d6 of damage. For their point cost - not the best and not something to build your strategy around. But, in the right cases, it can be decent.

While I am here... lets figure the rest - Targeting a SM Captain stock

6 heatlances = 3.5 damage
6 SC (not in Rapid fire) = 3 1.5
6 SC (rapid fire) = 6 3
6 Haywire = 2.25
6 Stinger Pods = 2.33

Math subject to lack of coffee this early. But surprisingly, the Splinter Cannons won based on weight of numbers...  I am rather shocked by that

Edit - early mathing is not my forte


Last edited by Faitherun on Sun Apr 22 2018, 21:36; edited 1 time in total
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 15:20

The reaper is likely being discontinued, so I'd say it's best to consider other alternatives.
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 15:34

Thanks Faithrun for running those numbers! I’m surprised as well at the splinter cannon. I guess just the sheer volume of shots makes a huge difference. I’ll probably consider doing that from time to time. Wouldn’t build my army around the strategy but I run 3 Talos with my covens, and it would give me another reason to use Dark Creed.
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 18:47

I had different numbers for splinter cannons. 36 shots = 18 hits = 9 wounds = 3 unsaved wounds if the target has 3+ armor. Am I missing something?

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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 19:53

I my opinion, using Talos as long range snipers doesn't work. But using it occasionally with the tail gun+double liquefier gun it's another story. I think that stratagem is there just for occasions, not for playing a strategy around
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 21:38

@Calyptra wrote:
I had different numbers for splinter cannons. 36 shots = 18 hits = 9 wounds = 3 unsaved wounds if the target has 3+ armor. Am I missing something?

Nope - you are absolutely correct. As I said, math and still waking up are not the best combination (I forgot to factor the chance to hit the first go through Neutral )

Still, for their range, I'd probably go with the SC.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Sun Apr 22 2018, 22:26

Yeah but is 3 wounds worth 2CP? Not imo.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Mon Apr 23 2018, 00:01

Its situational, so there may be a time when you want to risk it. Like what’s been stated, I wouldn’t build the army around it, but I won’t just throw it away either.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Mon Apr 23 2018, 00:23

@Sarkesian wrote:
Its situational, so there may be a time when you want to risk it. Like what’s been stated, I wouldn’t build the army around it, but I won’t just throw it away either.

This should be the idea of all stratagems honestly.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Mon Apr 23 2018, 00:23

Completely agree!
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Voidhawk
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Mon Apr 23 2018, 00:54

I think you're looking at this the wrong way: the sniper-stratagem is brought by the Dark Creed Coven, which is the one that gives a stacking morale penalty. It's not for killing the enemy warlord (who is likely to have a good invulnerable save and many wounds), but for sniping support characters that grant bonuses to Ld and who often hide inside infantry squads where they can be hard to dig out. Things like Commissars, Chaplins, and Ethereals.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Mon Apr 23 2018, 00:56

Agreed. Saying “don’t build around it” doesn’t really help much, since Dark Creed by default locks you into playing for Ld and assassination shenanigans, because otherwise they aren’t as tough as the Prophets or as deadly as the Twelve.
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Elfric
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Mon Apr 23 2018, 12:42

Would Dark Creed be preferable for Necron or Astartes army that usually has high leadership. Both those armies also have powerful HQ's
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Mon Apr 23 2018, 19:39

@Elfric wrote:
Would Dark Creed be preferable for Necron or Astartes army that usually has high leadership. Both those armies also have powerful HQ's

On Talos? no, i think PoF is to good.

After playing them a few ties (and even against Necrons) and just having that 4++ has won me the games

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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Mon Apr 23 2018, 21:42

It is true, but I wuold play more around the -Ld wrap (which is sure) than around the sniping shenanigans. Said, yes, if you can 3xTalos are a good choice anyway (they really love Fire and Fade!)
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PostSubject: Re: Talos HQ assassins   Tue Apr 24 2018, 08:03

I think it's interesting that both Dark Creed and Coven of Twelve have strategems that rely on single unit burst damage shooting.

If you're spending 2 CP to take a shot at a character, it better be a good shot. Three Talos with heat lances seems like the best bet. Against a T 4 or 5 target they should score 2 wounds with -5 AP and doing D6 damage each if they get through. Unfortunately, this requires giving your 3 Talos heat lances; I haven't been able to think of any other situations where you'd actually want to use that gun.

But I had some other thoughts. I don't think this strategem is likely to be great for warlord sniping, but I do think it could be great for removing secondary, support characters, like Astartes Lieutenants.

I also think that Dark Creed really wants a fleet of transports. Having a bunch of Venoms zipping around allows you to easily stack up the Ld penalties wherever you want them, and Raiders are the only way a Coven can get phantasm launchers for even more Ld penalties and access to the Torment Grenade strategem.

If you're trying to snipe a support character, a disintigrator seems like a pretty good choice. I math it as 1.3 wounds vs a T 4 target, and unsaved wounds do 2 damage. That has the potential of killing that pesky Lieutenant outright, but if it doesn't you can follow it up with a Torment Grenade to inflict a further D3 mortal wounds on the offending character.

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