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FattimusMcGee
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PostSubject: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Fri Apr 20 2018, 14:02

Here we go! My tried and tested Tournament list; please let me know what you think or have any questions guys


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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Fri Apr 20 2018, 15:19

Thanks for the info, it was very nice to listen to your ideas, although a minor detail, the venoms do not have the hover rule, so you do always measure from the base
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FattimusMcGee
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Fri Apr 20 2018, 16:06

Meavar! Oh snap, good catch!!! I'll update the desc. for the video.

Appreciate the feedback
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the_scotsman
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Sat Apr 21 2018, 01:56

One little note about your subfaction analysis: why would Venoms not get the rerolls of one to hit as well as the warriors when you're taking Flayed skull? All their guns are rapid fire weapons. I think for me that's what changes the calculus when I'm looking at venom spam - obsidian Rose I prefer with Raiders and Ravagers when you're running a Flyer wing rather than a Spearhead to get your Black Heart on, but for venom spam I'm reaching for FS.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Sat Apr 21 2018, 03:32

Thanx for the interesting vid FattimusMcGee.

The scotsman is correct, the Venoms cannons Reroll 1s to hit.
This + the ignore cover and extra speed tips flayed skull over the top for me when using venoms.
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FattimusMcGee
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Sat Apr 21 2018, 21:56

EDIT: At the ~15min Mark I got over this question specifically


Always appreciate the feedback ya'll, and great question Scotsman! If I'm being honest Spyder from TTT is who turned me onto looking into other Obsessions than FS, though he advocates Poison Tongue whereas I feel for Venoms specificall the range is better (imho!!!) You local meta may vary

TLDR = With buffing Archons the re-roll to hit is moot. We should be comparing the Ignore Cover/+3M to +6" range or +16% Poison damage or FnPs, imho

How I play it is w/foot archons next to my Venoms, giving them the re-roll 1's naturally. Therefore. specifically with the re-roll 1's (the ignore cover & move is separate atm) all you gain with FS is the 4 splinter rifles from the infantry on board. Imho an extra 6" on everything > 4 Splinter Rifles re-rolling 1's every time.

Take for example versus Imperial Knights - Would you rather hit more with 4 rifles or have an extra 6" range? Knights move 12", so if you're within the 18" range you'll want for Blasters/SC RF all the sudden they only need a 6" Charge and you're creamed. With the 6" Range boost, @ 21" SCRf (or better yet 24" Blasters as poison will do barely anything to aknight) that Charge suddenly becomes 9"-12". This applies to so much stuff - Space Marines can never get into RF (sans shenanigans) range if you do 21"+ whereas 18" will allow them to, etc.

Same with Poison Tongue. +16% damage is amazing. This all relies on the fact there is an Archon buffing your vehicles which is how I personally play it. IF you don't like foot archons or this strat then yes, FS is still very valid (though I still argue PT is worth looking into)

In my mind this means the re-roll buff for FS is moot unless you forego buffing units. Ignore Cover is phenomenal, however I'm not sold on the +3M for a VENOM specifically (Raiders it's nice tho).

In short, FS is FRIGGING AMAZING DO NOT GET ME WRONG PLEASE I just feel, with Venom Spam specifically, PT or OR is superior. Again if you do not use Archons for buffing or are a Raider Spam kind of guy then FS is probably better. Keep an eye on the tournament scene, I'm betting we're going to see a fair amount of players skip FS for the extra damage/range potential/etc

Because of past experiences let me make this extremely clear again - Flayed Skull is still and will always be an extremely effective and good Obsession. I am not saying it is bad by any stretch of the imagination. Please don't freak out on me for having a different opinion. FS is the "flashy" one that even I was immediately attracted too. I've practiced with every single obsession and every single one has won every single game sans one tie, so, take that as you will Razz
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 07:09

No one is considering a Spearhead Detatchment with Archon+3Ravagers? Archon general with Cunning+Wrist. You have 3 Ravagers, reroll of 1 both in ToHit and ToWound, Agents of Vect and likely +3-4 CP for game.
We litterally can't play without this little detatchment here in Italy! We're finding it like a must
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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 13:27

@Cerve wrote:
No one is considering a Spearhead Detatchment with Archon+3Ravagers? Archon general with Cunning+Wrist. You have 3 Ravagers, reroll of 1 both in ToHit and ToWound, Agents of Vect and likely +3-4 CP for game.
We litterally can't play without this little detatchment here in Italy! We're finding it like a must

Prettymuch everyone is considering that, it's a staple in most lists you see. I haven't finished the video yet to see what this guy takes and why, but just off the top of my head, there are definitely disadvantages to a Buffcon with Ravagers in that you're not very mobile. That's not a huge deal, except if your opponent can remove 2-3 Ravagers per turn (a lot of armies can) and you have limited ability to hide them and them jet them out to do their damage, which was the biggest strength of them.

Is a Black Heart Spearhead in every singly competitive list I make? Yes, but I do see arguments for not having it.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 15:45

I still don't understand the reliance on the use of Kabals/Ravagers/Obsessions. They're good and do their job but if you don't have Haemonculus units to hold the line and Wych units to flank and intercept then you're just setting yourself up to get blown up late game.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 15:53

@TeenageAngst wrote:
I still don't understand the reliance on the use of Kabals/Ravagers/Obsessions. They're good and do their job but if you don't have Haemonculus units to hold the line and Wych units to flank and intercept then you're just setting yourself up to get blown up late game.

I can't speak for anyone else but my lists contain the BH Spearhead plus a detachment of covens and a detachment of cults.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 15:56

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
I still don't understand the reliance on the use of Kabals/Ravagers/Obsessions. They're good and do their job but if you don't have Haemonculus units to hold the line and Wych units to flank and intercept then you're just setting yourself up to get blown up late game.

I can't speak for anyone else but my lists contain the BH Spearhead plus a detachment of covens and a detachment of cults.

Could you outline what detachments you run?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 16:02

BH Spearhead, Red Grief Outrider, Prophets Battalion.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 16:06

@Chippen wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
No one is considering a Spearhead Detatchment with Archon+3Ravagers? Archon general with Cunning+Wrist. You have 3 Ravagers, reroll of 1 both in ToHit and ToWound, Agents of Vect and likely +3-4 CP for game.
We litterally can't play without this little detatchment here in Italy! We're finding it like a must

Prettymuch everyone is considering that, it's a staple in most lists you see. I haven't finished the video yet to see what this guy takes and why, but just off the top of my head, there are definitely disadvantages to a Buffcon with Ravagers in that you're not very mobile. That's not a huge deal, except if your opponent can remove 2-3 Ravagers per turn (a lot of armies can) and you have limited ability to hide them and them jet them out to do their damage, which was the biggest strength of them.

Is a Black Heart Spearhead in every singly competitive list I make? Yes, but I do see arguments for not having it.

It's a detachment that's great in a vacuum but I'm having trouble slotting it in lists, especially at the 1500 points + 3 detachments that has become standard for tournaments near me.

I want a Battalion, because the 5 CP is too good to pass up. I want it to be Kabal, because I think three Kab Warrior units are more useful than three lots of Wyches or Wracks. I don't want that Kabal Battalion to be Black Heart, because other Obsessions are more useful for the vast majority of Kabal units.

So I'll need to run two Kabal detachments, and three Archons. That right there is at least 216 points out of 1500 gone and I'm not sure that Archons are that useful, even with Cunning and Writ of the Living Muse.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 16:08

Hmm, I think I still prefer the Brigade if only because of the extra CP is generates in lieu of Obsessions.

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FattimusMcGee
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 16:50

This list uses a BH Ravager Spearhead! Reason it's so good is A) Gives us a good detach. with the Black Heart WL Trait, allowing us to generate CP while also bringing *other* Obsessions, and B) We are able to easily keep the Ravagers off the table until needed (though I usually drop them T1 near my Archon).

You're spot on that they're going to be slightly out of range at times, but honestly with the 14M on the Ravagers and the 8M+Re-rollable Advance for our Archon means we can move them as needed quite easily. Re-rolling 1's to hit AND Wound is pretty money though so even with the lack of range I'm not too worried. DC Ravagers shred stuff like Termies in a heartbeat which is something Drukhari struggle with normally.
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63Jl9lK
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 18:04

Thanks for the video, I'm not playing too often and it improved my understanding of how things work this edition. I have one question still. You were explaining how good it is to stay 21" away from enemy, why wouldnt you take Splinter Cannon for 10pts to get 4 extra shots at mentioned range?
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 18:28

Obsession bonuses are very significant, far more so than just more CPs. Brigade just seems bad because you’re basically locked into one subfaction, and may have to bring Reapers to fill the heavy slots.

No obsessions = you’re basically playing the index = nowhere near as good.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 18:31

@withershadow wrote:
Obsession bonuses are very significant, far more so than just more CPs. Brigade just seems bad because you’re basically locked into one subfaction, and may have to bring Reapers to fill the heavy slots.

No obsessions = you’re basically playing the index = nowhere near as good.

For most purposes the Obsessions do not justify the tax necessary to get them on everything. Of course this wouldn't be a problem if we were just one big happy faction like literally every other army in the game but god forbid we have that.

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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 21:33

I disagree, Obsessions is what make us broken. These+the fact that we are too cheap+Agents of Vect.

Seriously, maybe the meta is different but I can't what is wrong in this Codex. Is top tier for sure, we'll get some point increases with the next Chapter Approved, I guess. Ok it doesn't have an entry level, but with some experience this Codex really rocks Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 21:37

@Cerve wrote:
Obsessions is litterally what makes us broken...

I don't see how taking a 5++ and making it a 4++ is better than, say, having 5 extra CP.

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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 21:51

Why to choose when you can have both? I played BH+Prophets with no problems at all.
Honestly, a Spearhead BH with 1 Archon+3Ravagers is a solid, cheap, and wonderfull detatchment to add in any list. You get good fire power, you can deepstrike all of the Ravagers in turn 1 if you go second, you will reroll 1 to hit and wound thanks to the BH Archon, and get something like +3-4 CP thanks for the Trait.
I litterally can't avoid to fit this little Det. in any list I write. It's so good.

Playing a single Obsession is something that I firmly avoid. It's not competitive at all, you lack too many bonusses. Maybe...maybe...a Brigade. But it will be from the BH because Agents of Vect is too good for the competitive scene.

Just my opinion, but I find this Codex in top tier
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 22:00

The codex is definitely top tier, but it's obnoxious to play around the arbitrary limitations being 3 separate subfactions requires. You either have to perform list building gymnastics to get your Obsessions and all 3 parts of the army on the board, or you have to ignore Obsessions entirely to bring a well rounded Brigade. I do the latter because this edition has enough book keeping as it is. The tax for bringing 3 detachments is so ludicrously high I'm wondering if it was playtested at all.

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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 22:07

I don't really find any struggle about building a multiobsessions :-/ don't know where you find this taxes
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 22:25

@Cerve wrote:
I disagree, Obsessions is what make us broken. These+the fact that we are too cheap+Agents of Vect.

Seriously, maybe the meta is different but I can't what is wrong in this Codex. Is top tier for sure, we'll get some point increases with the next Chapter Approved, I guess. Ok it doesn't have an entry level, but with some experience this Codex really rocks Smile

Have there been any large-ish tournaments since our Codex got released? We're definitely strong but I'm very hesitant to call us broken in any way.
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PostSubject: Re: Post FAQ Tournament Tactica - AKA How to Win More   Mon Apr 23 2018, 22:41

@Cerve wrote:
I don't really find any struggle about building a multiobsessions :-/ don't know where you find this taxes

I can get 2 factions on the table easy, it's getting the 3rd one on there that makes me rip my hair out. I can't drop Kabals because of cheap troops, I can't drop Cults because I need 12 Razorwing Flocks with a Beastmaster, and I can't drop Covens because they have the best units. The Brigade lets me have everything I want and tons of CP but I don't get the Obsessions which is so dumb I'm still having trouble understanding who thought it was a good idea.

3 units of 10 Wracks is just overkill if you're not going pure Covens. 3 units of Wyches requires so much support you might as well be going full Cult. And bringing multiple Kabal detachments makes no sense. So if I want a double-battalion + Outrider/Spearhead I need to decide if I want to dump 80 points on useless Wych squads or 90 points on slightly less useless Wrack squads, and their corresponding do-nothing HQ taxes.

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