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 Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.

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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Thu Apr 19 2018, 18:09

My LGS went bananas over the recent FAQ this week. The sky didn't threaten to fall, it actually fell in large chunks directly on many of our locals, clearly targeted by the archangel Ariel.

I nay-sayed, too. I appreciate armies that are built around alpha strikes or about deepstriking - at least by perception. I commiserated that I think the new beta rules to those FAQ rules will end up scaled back a notch and they hit too hard out of the gate.
The rule of 3, too, seems to blanket every army while intending to reign back several specifics. I've voiced locally that GW should target what needs specific attention.

However, here, I think the FAQ bounced right off of us. In fact, I think it not only will help the game in the long run, but us almost immediately.

In the last several games against a common foe that plays a lot of Grey Knights, I had my deployment spread out with my Raiders and Ravagers, and even a unit of Kabs OUT of their boat to start - just to make it absolutely ensured that my bud couldn't drop his big boys behind my line. I've had to think about the first turn alpha drop every game of 8th, and I've gotten used to it, but that's almost exclusively all I bitch about, and I've bitched about it at least every other game. Deepstriking turn 1 as a defensive ploy (keeping my key pieces in reserve so they don't get gunned) is viable. Dropping them turn 2+ as a tactic is still viable and I think it'll give interesting new options to the gameplay and maybe even list building.

Rule of 3: The only thing that seems to really burn my bread here is if I want to double up on my Battalion, specifically only for Kabs, because we have so few HQ. This seems like such a non-issue to me, but I know it's a thing. So many other factions can't even think about getting a double Battalion in a 2k game (according to my locals, struck in the head by falling pieces of sky). So it limits us in a way that not many others even consider? Okay, I guess.

I've been trying to figure out what I will or might eventually miss 4+ units of. Khymeara? Reavers? I had toyed with the notion of getting a 4th Ravager but that's really just showing off.

Am I missing something?
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Gorefather
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Thu Apr 19 2018, 18:24

Really the only Ro3 that hurts me is losing mono Court builds. I guess it's not a loss to take 2 Sslyth and a Lhaemameman and Medusae over 4 Sslyth but that's the price you pay.

The more I look at it the less it hurts which is a shame because pain is the true currency of Commorragh, but I am starting to appreciate how we can still tear through the enemy without deep striking.

Scourges being delayed a turn isn't even that bad since they can move so far, even Shredders can tag the front line without advancing. Dark Lances can still be deployed normally and Blasters are only marginally effected. Mandrakes being delayed sucks but at least they come out swinging when they finally do arrive.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Thu Apr 19 2018, 18:33

@nerdelemental wrote:
My LGS went bananas over the recent FAQ this week. The sky didn't threaten to fall, it actually fell in large chunks directly on many of our locals, clearly targeted by the archangel Ariel.

I nay-sayed, too. I appreciate armies that are built around alpha strikes or about deepstriking - at least by perception. I commiserated that I think the new beta rules to those FAQ rules will end up scaled back a notch and they hit too hard out of the gate.
The rule of 3, too, seems to blanket every army while intending to reign back several specifics. I've voiced locally that GW should target what needs specific attention.

However, here, I think the FAQ bounced right off of us. In fact, I think it not only will help the game in the long run, but us almost immediately.

In the last several games against a common foe that plays a lot of Grey Knights, I had my deployment spread out with my Raiders and Ravagers, and even a unit of Kabs OUT of their boat to start - just to make it absolutely ensured that my bud couldn't drop his big boys behind my line. I've had to think about the first turn alpha drop every game of 8th, and I've gotten used to it, but that's almost exclusively all I bitch about, and I've bitched about it at least every other game. Deepstriking turn 1 as a defensive ploy (keeping my key pieces in reserve so they don't get gunned) is viable. Dropping them turn 2+ as a tactic is still viable and I think it'll give interesting new options to the gameplay and maybe even list building.

Rule of 3: The only thing that seems to really burn my bread here is if I want to double up on my Battalion, specifically only for Kabs, because we have so few HQ. This seems like such a non-issue to me, but I know it's a thing. So many other factions can't even think about getting a double Battalion in a 2k game (according to my locals, struck in the head by falling pieces of sky). So it limits us in a way that not many others even consider? Okay, I guess.

I've been trying to figure out what I will or might eventually miss 4+ units of. Khymeara? Reavers? I had toyed with the notion of getting a 4th Ravager but that's really just showing off.

Am I missing something?

The no-deepstrike turn 1 would be fine if it affected every armies. For a mysterious reason, some speech mureen army are still able to do it. If you want to forbid it, fine. But forbid it for everyone.
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Thu Apr 19 2018, 18:43

YES on the Court! That will be a problem. I have 6 Sslyth models and 4 Medusa and 4 Lhams. Ugh. Yeah. I want them to be small units again.

I've been running Obsidian Rose this week and the extra range allows me to park far back and not really think of anything. I like the shift of thinking for Mandrakes and Scourges to come in on turn 2 instead of turn 1. I like the new tactics.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Thu Apr 19 2018, 18:59

On deep striking, as far as I can tell no army can deepstrike outside of their deployment zone turn one, there are still things like "strike from the shadows" and scout moves and such that let models move outside their deployment but those take place before the first game turn.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Thu Apr 19 2018, 19:29

@Archon_91 wrote:
On deep striking, as far as I can tell no army can deepstrike outside of their deployment zone turn one, there are still things like "strike from the shadows" and scout moves and such that let models move outside their deployment but those take place before the first game turn.

Not calling it deepstrike doesn't change the fact they can still alpha strike turn 1 without allowing us to do anything. If "mass deploy of unit after deployment is a fundamental aspect of these armies", why aren't we allowed to do it, too? We're space pirates. We literally deepstrike the totality of our army on the planet each time.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Thu Apr 19 2018, 20:29

In a way we are though, poison tongue has a Stratagem that allows I believe three units to redeploy after initial set up, and I'm pretty sure it's a stratagem for the speece mahreens as well that let's them Redeploy units that have already been set up on the table (don't quote me as I may be horribly ignorant of how it works as noone in the play group I'm in plays that using that)
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Thu Apr 19 2018, 21:15

Something I think the FAQ will help us better use is our speed. Pretty feasibly, you could have your entire army move almost 20" on your first turn! One of the big complaints I've heard is Syndrome, uh, Syndrome. "If everyone is super, no one will be." With everyone getting access to mass deepstrike, all of our coveted speed really didn't do jack.

With the ability to delay that for at least the first turn, I think we'll see Alpha striking transport rushes look a lot more appealing.

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Nogrim
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Thu Apr 19 2018, 21:26

maybe its just me but i think the rule of three is actually a move to make leadership and morale actually matter.

you can still field the same number of models as swarmy lists, but those units will now be much larger and more susceptible to morale, imho with our covens getting some pretty strong negative leadership abilities i personally see this as a sleeper buff to any army with leadership shenanigans. though it does sort of suck given how few basic troop choices we have for each subfaction, basically having a battalion is a penalty to DE as we would give up all the obsessions just to fill basic troops slots.
wouldnt be so bad if we had a basic troop mercenary we could fill in slots with without giving up obsessions.
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Fri Apr 20 2018, 00:46

Rule of Three is the single best decision made in 40k since 6th edition effectively abolished the FOC and started the downward trend into the extremely tedious "eight Tau Commanders/Hive Tyrants" ultra-spam territory.
Since our new codex has a lot of alternatives to filling any given combat role, we're largely untouched by it (you wanted to field 5 ravagers? Have you considered... 3 Ravagers, and 2 Razorwing Jetfighters?) except for "eight units of medusae sitting in a raider" spam and not fielding two Kabal Battalions without Drazhar.
Yes, it's a mild inconvenience for us, but the game's worst and most boring armies (IE: Tyranids) are now forced to play a real army list instead of just spamming a single HQ. Suck it, bugs. And also some others, but mostly the bugs.

It also got significantly harder for practically every army except ours to get a turn-one charge off. Trading the ability to Fire-and-Fade my medusae into range from a deepstrike is absolutely worth never again having to field my kabalites outside their transports just because I know my enemy's going to run thirty Witchtime'd Tzaangors into me from the word "go".

This FAQ is absolutely a boon to us. Way too many players only think "how will this impact my army?", not "how will this impact my enemy's army?".
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Gorefather
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Fri Apr 20 2018, 01:09

@mynamelegend wrote:

This FAQ is absolutely a boon to us. Way too many players only think "how will this impact my army?", not "how will this impact my enemy's army?".

"Asdrubael Vect does not lose, he simply changes the goal of the game."
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Fri Apr 20 2018, 02:34

Yeah, I only see us as benefiting. Talking pure drukhari, idk anything about our cousins.

pure coven lists affected? just run larger units of taloi, they are so good now, i want to get two more

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Fri Apr 20 2018, 10:31

The beta rules for deep strike make our cult lists the number 1 alpha strike lists now. Who else can hit that deep in their deployment zone with shooting and CC? And hit pretty hard at that when you take into account moving shooting and CC

Red grief you give me goose bumps!
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Fri Apr 20 2018, 12:22

Maybe it's because I quickly latched onto the deep reach of Obsidian Rose and Red Grief as the strongest (to me). My Ravagers are gunning down important targets without ever moving and my girls are right up in the opponent's grill turn one.

I'm doing a strange tactic that seems to be playing out fairly well: Dark Lances and Disintegrators from 2-3 Ravagers and 2 Raiders with Blaster-Kabs put some damage in key targets. 2-3 Raiders with Red Grief Wyches advance and charge. But I'm trying to get them to end their move in a wall formation, locking the opponent down in deployment. They'll break some boats on their turn, but my Wyches and Succubi come falling out behind the wreckage.

I'm not kidding, after ~3 games against different opponents they gathered together and had a serious conversation about "How do we counter Dark Eldar?"
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zelatar
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Fri Apr 20 2018, 12:55

@Nogrim wrote:
maybe its just me but i think the rule of three is actually a move to make leadership and morale actually matter.

you can still field the same number of models as swarmy lists, but those units will now be much larger and more susceptible to morale, imho with our covens getting some pretty strong negative leadership abilities i personally see this as a sleeper buff to any army with leadership shenanigans. though it does sort of suck given how few basic troop choices we have for each subfaction, basically having a battalion is a penalty to DE as we would give up all the obsessions just to fill basic troops slots.
wouldnt be so bad if we had a basic troop mercenary we could fill in slots with without giving up obsessions.

Great point. I'd love to try out the fear-themed coven faction with this in mind.


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Emeraldw
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Fri Apr 20 2018, 15:24

@nerdelemental wrote:
Maybe it's because I quickly latched onto the deep reach of Obsidian Rose and Red Grief as the strongest (to me).

Your not the only one with that opinion on Red Grief. Red Grief is far and away the best one for Wyches if you are not running large blobs of them (Cursed Blade wins that one).

Only reason I am running Strife is because I trying to be more patient in my opening turns and because I want to use Lelith. Otherwise Red Grief all the way.
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Fri Apr 20 2018, 15:32

@Nogrim wrote:
though it does sort of suck given how few basic troop choices we have for each subfaction, basically having a battalion is a penalty to DE as we would give up all the obsessions just to fill basic troops slots.
wouldnt be so bad if we had a basic troop mercenary we could fill in slots with without giving up obsessions.

Why are you giving up obsessions;

1. Battalions only require 3 troops.

2. Also Troops and transports don't follow the rule of three.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Fri Apr 20 2018, 15:52

I am wondering if Rule of 3 will actually be followed by tournament organizations. After all, it is set forth as a guideline by GW, rather than a hard ruling - while, so far organizations like ITC seemed to be unquestioningly adopting these guidelines, the rule of 3 might actually give them pause, as it is considerably more controversial than previous guidelines.

Not to mention that rule of 3 pretty much doesn't appear to affect Imperial Guard at all, since they appear to have a bajillion different datasheets for variants of the same thing, and the ability to deploy numerous squadrons that immediately break off into independent units.

It seems like there wasn't too much thought put into rule of 3, and it would be nice if TOs would start using their own brains again (as they had to do throughout 6th-7th edition, when GW didn't want to have any hand in tourney organization) and start adjusting the guidelines accordingly for their own events (which is something, I might add, that GW has stated to be perfectly acceptable).
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Fri Apr 20 2018, 18:18

With a million arguments from players everywhere, from a strictly DE point of view, I think Rule3 doesn't offer any major setback, just some adjustments, while some armies and players are taking it really, really hard.

Personally, I'd have found a way to cap individual models that are being spam abused instead of a global rule, but 8th is all about adhering to big, global rules (and then breaking them arbitrarily and inexplicably with random datasheets).
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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Tue Apr 24 2018, 11:41

Yeah Drukhari definitely came out of this glowing. It just makes our speed even more relevant.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Big FAQ and how it HELPS DE.   Tue Apr 24 2018, 16:10

If the rule of 3 only effected certain models it wouldn't necessarily fix the problem that spam lists would still dominate the top tables of tournaments. I like the global rule as it keeps players from just finding the next thing to spam and actually kinda forces the need to be creative and diverse in list building. While leaving the essentials of an army (the troops) untouched.
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