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Burnage
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PostSubject: 1500 point tournament list   Thu Apr 19 2018, 13:31

Got an event coming up soon with a slightly awkward restriction on detachments - the army for it has to consist of either 1 Battalion or 3 Patrols. With that in mind, I'm considering the following list;

Black Heart Patrol
Archon (Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade, Cunning, Living Muse) - 72 pts
Sslyth - 27 pts
Sslyth - 27 pts
5 x Kabalite Warriors (Agoniser, PGL, Blaster) - 54 pts
5 x Scourges (4 x Dark Lance) - 140 pts
Ravager (3 x Disintegrators) - 125 pts
Ravager (3 x Dark Lance) - 140 pts

Flayed Skull Patrol
Archon (Splinter Pistol, Huskblade) - 76 pts
5 x Kabalite Warriors (Blaster, PGL) - 50 pts
5 x Kabalite Warriors (Blaster, PGL) - 50 pts
5 x Kabalite Warriors (Blaster, PGL) - 50 pts
Venom (2 x Splinter Cannons) - 75 pts
Venom (2 x Splinter Cannons) - 75 pts
Venom (2 x Splinter Cannons) - 75 pts

Red Grief Patrol
Succubus (Agoniser, Blood Glaive, Hyper-swift Reflexes, +1 A) - 54 pts
10 x Wyches (Blast Pistol, PGL, Power Sword, +1 S) - 97 pts
6 x Reavers (2 x Blasters, 2 x Grav-Talons, +1 T) - 154 pts
3 x Reavers (1 x Blaster), + 2 Move) - 74 pts
Raider (Dark Lance) - 85 pts

Comes to 1500 points exactly. The general game plan that I have in mind is to use the Black Heart as a back line, moving forward if necessary, while the (embarked) Wyches and unit of 6 Reavers try to get a first turn charge off. The rest of the Red Grief patrol and the Flayed Skull patrol will then follow up and try to pick vulnerable targets and/or grab objectives when necessary.

Any thoughts?
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DingWop
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 point tournament list   Thu Apr 19 2018, 18:08

I like the list. I would be tempted to cut blasters from reavers, agoniser on kabs, second SC on venoms (85pts) so you could have a second DL raider for your black heart kabs, succubus, sslyth and archon to ride in. You might even be able to start both archons in it and have the living muse archon jump out by the ravagers turn one before the raider speeds off to reduce drops if needed.
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Crixalis
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 point tournament list   Fri Apr 20 2018, 08:41

How have the 4x DLs Scourges being working for you? I'm personally partial towards 4x HWBs. Cheap and effective against almost all the same vehicles, and better against shielding and super heavies.

If you did that, dropped a few blasters on the reavers and grouped them together + dropped the PGLs and got together an extra 10 points you could have a second Dissie ravager. Which are amazing, especially with a WotLM Archon sitting next to them.

Failing that, DingWop's suggestion is pretty good. Or if you change nothing else, drop a PGL to give the 3x Reavers a Grav-Talon. Cool list overall. Not too spammy.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 point tournament list   Fri Apr 20 2018, 14:11

Thanks for the thoughts. I don't mind characters not being embarked - I've actually found that makes them more likely to be effective as distractions, but on the flip side if I actually want them to be effective threats it is a good idea to throw them at people as quickly as possible.

Dark Lance Scourges are, in my experience, very swingy - they either manage to wipe out a key target in a single turn, or fail to do anything at all.

It turns out that the event has dropped its restrictions, so I'm considering altering things slightly to this;

Flayed Skull Battalion
Archon (Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade, Obsidian Veil, Soulthirst) - 72 pts
Archon (Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade) - 72 pts
Court of the Archon (2 x Sslyth) - 54 pts
5 x Kabalite Warriors (Blaster) - 47 pts
5 x Kabalite Warriors (Blaster) - 47 pts
5 x Kabalite Warriors (Blaster) - 47 pts
Ravager (3 x Dark Lances) - 140 pts
Ravager (3 x Dark Lances) - 140 pts
Ravager (3 x Disintegrator Cannons) - 125 pts
Venom (2 x Splinter Cannons) - 75 pts
Venom (2 x Splinter Cannons) - 75 pts
Venom (2 x Splinter Cannons) - 75 pts
Venom (2 x Splinter Cannons) - 75 pts

Red Grief Outriders
Succubus (Blood Glaive, Agoniser, Hyper-swift Reflexes) - 54 pts
9 x Reavers (2 x Blaster, +1 T) - 205 pts
3 x Reavers (+2 Move) - 57 pts
5 x Scourges (4 x Dark Lances) - 140 pts

Comes to 1500 points exactly.

No Black Heart is potentially a bit painful, but this list allows two Archons, the Succubus and two Sslyth to be riding around in a Venom and means everything as a whole gets considerably more aggressive. Pretty sure that the terrain is going to involve lots of cover, so the Flayed Skull obsession is going to do much more work for me than a Black Heart battalion would.
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DingWop
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 point tournament list   Fri Apr 20 2018, 16:25

I would try to fit the black heart back in, but I admit loosing the extra HQ tax is appealing. Here is my 1500pt list I'm putting together for my next game day. I think we have similar ideas on where to take the lists. I expect to see more infantry armies than mech so I went lighter on DL and heavier on DC and shredders. I striped down the reavers to use them as tarpits that I don't mind getting shot up. In fact I use them as my forward screen and want them to get shot up instead of anything more shooty. Plus they will be advancing so I'd rather put the blaster points into something not shooting at 4+. Maybe if you use them more conservatively I could see blasters being good, because well blasters are pretty good. The 4 blast pistols and HQs minus black heart will be in a raider with the disintegrator cannon than can move up to 29" (14"move, 8" aether sail advance, 7" fire and fade) to try and find a safe target/side to blast first turn before jumping out and charging something turn two. Biggest concerns with the list is getting my HQ raider surrounded and lack of DL.

10 Disintegrator cannons
4 Blast Pistols
3 Blasters
1 Dark Lance
3 Shredders
3 Splinter cannons
35 Splinter riffles


Points
1500

Upgrades Base Extra Total
BLACK HEART
Archon VB/Writ 70 2 72
Ravager DCx3 80 45 125
Ravager DCx3 80 45 125
Ravager DCx3 80 45 125

FLAYED SKULL/POSION TOUNGE
Archon BP/ Husk 70 16 86
Archon BP/Ag 70 14 84
Kablite x7 BP/ SHx1 42 18 60
Kablite x5 BLx1/PGL 30 20 50
Kablite x5 BLx1/PGL 30 20 50
Kablite x5 BLx1 30 17 47
Kablite x10 SHx2 60 16 76
Raider DCx1 65 15 80
Raider DLx1 65 20 85
Venom SCx1 55 10 65
Venom SCx1 55 10 65
Venom SCx1 55 10 65

RED GRIEF
Succubus BP/ Relic-Glaive 50 10 60 +A
Reavers GT 57 3 60 +T
Reavers GT 57 3 60 +WS
Reavers GT 57 3 60 +M

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DingWop
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 point tournament list   Fri Apr 20 2018, 16:30

Oh whats your thought on the Blood glaive and agonizer on the succubus? rather than duel melee weapons maybe a PGL on a kab squad?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 point tournament list   Sat Apr 21 2018, 08:58

@DingWop wrote:
Oh whats your thought on the Blood glaive and agonizer on the succubus?  rather than duel melee weapons maybe a PGL on a kab squad?    

It's basically because all my Succubi have Agonizers modelled on them! I could still drop paying for them, I suppose, but the option's nice to have if for some reason I don't want to spend the CP on Prizes From The Dark City and am stuck with the basic Archite Glaive.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 point tournament list   Thu Apr 26 2018, 00:29

Been doing some tweaking and playtesting, and I'm starting to drift towards this as a list.

Alaitoc Patrol
Farseer Skyrunner (Doom, Executioner, Warlord - Fate's Messenger, The Phoenix Gem, Singing Spear) - 140 pts
5 x Rangers - 60 pts

Flayed Skull Battalion
Archon (Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade, Obsidian Veil) - 72 pts
Archon (Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade, Helm of Spite) - 72 pts
Court of the Archon (1 x Sslyth) - 27 pts
5 x Kabalite Warriors (Blaster, PGL) - 50 pts
5 x Kabalite Warriors (Blaster, PGL) - 50 pts
5 x Kabalite Warriors (Blaster, PGL) - 50 pts
5 x Kabalite Warriors (Blaster, PGL) - 50 pts
5 x Mandrakes - 80 pts
5 x Scourges (4 x Dark Lances) - 140 pts
Ravager (3 x Dark Lances) - 140 pts
Ravager (3 x Dark Lances) - 140 pts
Ravager (3 x Disintegrator Cannons) - 125 pts
Venom (2 x Splinter Cannons) - 75 pts
Venom (2 x Splinter Cannons) - 75 pts
Venom (2 x Splinter Cannons) - 75 pts
Venom (2 x Splinter Cannons) - 75 pts

Yes, yes, I know that having a Farseer (and let alone a Farseer Warlord!) is heresy. But I'm still having trouble getting through MEQ and I'm expecting to run into at least one Custodes Jetbike deathstar, so being able to throw out mortal wounds and Dooming targets is going to be insanely helpful. I also prefer Fate's Messenger to pretty much any of the warlord traits that the Flayed Skull has access to - T4, 7 wounds, a 4++ and a 6+++ (5+++ versus mortal wounds) makes for a surprisingly tanky character.

Aside from that, the core of this list is basically Index Dark Eldar on steroids. Zoom around, shoot things, actually manage to hit and wound them thanks to the Archons, Flayed Skull Obsession and Doom.
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 point tournament list   Sat Apr 28 2018, 03:54

I can't comment on the Farseer, but I can definitely give some hints as far as the Drukhari side of things is concerned.

If you're going venom spam, especially for a tournament, I'd heavily consider poison tongue or Obsidian rose but I'll get to that later.
Your Archons should always be in the midst of your Venoms or Ravagers anyway, so I wouldn't worry about the Sslyth. Next, I'd drop the the PGLs. Then, I'd change the Darklance Scourges to Haywire Blasters. Haywire is really good and let's you use the Scourges movement and deepstriking capability to the fullest. They're also not going to live particularly long with Dark lances, so for 140 points I feel like that's too much of an investment. 92 for 5 with 4 Haywire is a lot more reasonable and they'll put in work. I'd drop the Dark lances on the Ravagers as well. Someone did the math on them a while back and it showed that dissies are generally better than lances. It'll also help a lot with MEQ and should help with Custodes as well.

That gives you an extra 117 points to spend. I'd get another 5 man Kabalite squad with a Blaster in a single cannon venom and give one of your Archons a Huskblade and swap his relic for the Djinn blade. This will make atleast one of them a valid character hunter or atleast a potent countercharge unit.

Back to Obsessions. Flayed skull is obviously good and ignoring cover is great, but both poison tongue and obsidian rose are really, really good with Venoms.

The main problem I have with flayed skull is the reroll aura from your Archons is completely wasted on flayed skull Venoms, making them 100% a tax if you don't plan on using them for melee. This is even worse if you don't even get to use Blasters on them because you're going codex only. The increased movement doesn't help Venoms all that much, as they're already fairly quick. It makes a much bigger difference to raiders.

Poison tongue is insane with venom spam lists, because you're able to reroll 1s on hits and wounds when they're within 6 of your Archon. Poison tongue also let's you reroll 1s with melee weapons, which lets your Archon with the Djinn blade be a very big threat in melee.

The obsidian rose is insane as well. Adding 6" to all your weapons means 24" blasters, 42" dissies and really importantly, 21" rapid fire on your Venoms cannons. This means you can really effectively kite a lot of armies because you can move within 21" of their infantry, rapid fire them and then be guaranteed they can't charge you or get in to rapid fire range themselves. Weight of fire is what will bring a lot of your Venoms down, so having a way to mitigate that is really good.

Personally, I'd go for the Obsidian rose if you plan to use use the Farseer for doom, as the rerolls 1s from poison tongue would be wasted.
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Crixalis
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 point tournament list   Sat Apr 28 2018, 07:35

+1 to goin for Obsidian Rose. With no assault units to speak of the ability to kite opponents and shoot at full strength at Range is key. Re-rolls from Archons mean you’re only missing out on Ignore Cover, which is nice but not mandatory. Flayed Skull is a no-brainer in lists with lots of moving parts, this isn’t really one of them. Play Test an Obsidian Gunline at least once and see if the Range isn’t a game changer.

Instead of another Venom though I would drop the Lances to Dissies on the Ravagers and Lances to Haywire on the Scourge (or if you like this unit, then drop the second Splinter Cannons) then get an extra Black Heart Archon with the Writ Relic. The math Trueborn was talking about shows Dissie Ravagers are better from T1 - 6, Average only 1 Wound less for T7/8, then are superior again for T9+ This also gives you access to Agents of Vect which is pure gold. It gives you 1 more CP but unfortunately comes with a bit of a Tax. I’d say the Archon’s double Aura is worth about 50 pts though, so really a 22 pt tax isn’t much.

I’d also say drop the Sslyth and find points for Blasters on the Archons but apparantely you don’t run index (though you should Very Happy ) In that case look for Blast Pistols and Huskblades as Trueborn mentioned.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 point tournament list   Sat Apr 28 2018, 11:12

This is giving me quite a lot to chew over! Some thoughts on your comments:

Quote :
Your Archons should always be in the midst of your Venoms or Ravagers anyway, so I wouldn't worry about the Sslyth.

The Sslyth is definitely something I'd consider dropping, but I'm a bit worried about feeling like I need to cluster my vehicles around Archons. Yes, the re-roll is nice, but being able to move around the map (especially with the Venoms!) is very helpful and great for grabbing and contesting objectives. In practice I also find that forcing all my units together just tends to get them killed, either via AOE attacks or charging enemies; sticking the Archons just next to the Ravagers is safer for the army as a whole, and with their slower movement it's more feasible for the characters to keep up by Advancing.

Quote :
Next, I'd drop the the PGLs.

I'd be a bit hesitant about this because I've found that it's very easy for PGLs to make their points back - one or two models over the course of an entire game is all it takes. Torment grenades are also a huge benefit and I've found myself missing them when I haven't had access to them.

Quote :
Then, I'd change the Darklance Scourges to Haywire Blasters. Haywire is really good and let's you use the Scourges movement and deepstriking capability to the fullest. They're also not going to live particularly long with Dark lances, so for 140 points I feel like that's too much of an investment. 92 for 5 with 4 Haywire is a lot more reasonable and they'll put in work.

The only thing I'm concerned about here is that in a list designed to take all comers, I'm not sure how effective Haywire is in practice. If I wind up going against a lot of Tyranid players, will they just be dead weight? That extra 50 points would come in handy, though, and against any vehicles with an invulnerable save Haywire's going to be incredible.

Honestly I'm thinking of eventually ditching the Scourges for a Razorwing as soon as I actually pick up the model.

Quote :
I'd drop the Dark lances on the Ravagers as well. Someone did the math on them a while back and it showed that dissies are generally better than lances. It'll also help a lot with MEQ and should help with Custodes as well.

I'd agree with this but I think keeping some Dark Lances around would be helpful just to be more likely to punch through certain tough opponents - something I've been considering is having a 1/2 split across all the Ravagers, so that each one is armed with a single Dark Lance and two Disintegrator Cannons. Again, that's an issue of needing to actually model the right bits.

Quote :
That gives you an extra 117 points to spend. I'd get another 5 man Kabalite squad with a Blaster in a single cannon venom and give one of your Archons a Huskblade and swap his relic for the Djinn blade. This will make atleast one of them a valid character hunter or atleast a potent countercharge unit.

Definitely a consideration, if I do open up those points - more Venoms are always good and Huskblades do make the Archons more of a threat in combat.

For the relics, I'm not set in stone about what I take. Since my Farseer's my Warlord I always need to spend CP to use the Dark Eldar relics, but that also means I can tailor them slightly to the opponent that I'm running (since most tournaments near me don't demand that you list stratagem relics on your army). Against Thousand Sons I'd definitely be taking the Helm of Spite, for instance, but typically an Obisidian Veil/Djin Blade combo might work very well.

I'm not tied to Codex only as well - I only dropped Blasters on them to make the Archons a bit cheaper. 93 points with a Blaster and Huskblade is quite a hefty price for something that I tend to treat as a disposable unit.

Quote :
Back to Obsessions. Flayed skull is obviously good and ignoring cover is great, but both poison tongue and obsidian rose are really, really good with Venoms.

The main problem I have with flayed skull is the reroll aura from your Archons is completely wasted on flayed skull Venoms, making them 100% a tax if you don't plan on using them for melee. This is even worse if you don't even get to use Blasters on them because you're going codex only. The increased movement doesn't help Venoms all that much, as they're already fairly quick. It makes a much bigger difference to raiders.

Poison tongue is insane with venom spam lists, because you're able to reroll 1s on hits and wounds when they're within 6 of your Archon. Poison tongue also let's you reroll 1s with melee weapons, which lets your Archon with the Djinn blade be a very big threat in melee.

The obsidian rose is insane as well. Adding 6" to all your weapons means 24" blasters, 42" dissies and really importantly, 21" rapid fire on your Venoms cannons. This means you can really effectively kite a lot of armies because you can move within 21" of their infantry, rapid fire them and then be guaranteed they can't charge you or get in to rapid fire range themselves. Weight of fire is what will bring a lot of your Venoms down, so having a way to mitigate that is really good.

Personally, I'd go for the Obsidian rose if you plan to use use the Farseer for doom, as the rerolls 1s from poison tongue would be wasted.

This is definitely something I hadn't considered properly (or really playtested). Two things really shifted me towards Flayed Skull; my own personal playstyle, and my local meta. The boards near me are covered in terrain, and being able to ignore that makes killing MEQ hugely easier - the equivalent of a -1 AP is doubling how many Marines splinter weapons can kill a turn. I also like being able to move around the map with Venoms to pick off specific targets and grab objectives, so huddling up with Archons feels very restrictive; it also makes the additional 3 inch move attractive. Even in my games already with the Codex that bonus move has enabled me to grab a few victory points that I would have missed otherwise, so I wouldn't discount it just because Venoms are already very fast.

However, I can definitely see the appeal of both Poisoned Tongue and Obsidian Rose, moreso Rose since I'm running Doom as well. The increase in kiting ability does feel powerful on paper, and I'll need to play around with it a bit.

Just one minor caveat as well - the Djin Blade doesn't work Poisoned Tongue's rerolls. That doesn't make a huge difference but it is worth noting.

Quote :
Instead of another Venom though I would drop the Lances to Dissies on the Ravagers and Lances to Haywire on the Scourge (or if you like this unit, then drop the second Splinter Cannons) then get an extra Black Heart Archon with the Writ Relic. The math Trueborn was talking about shows Dissie Ravagers are better from T1 - 6, Average only 1 Wound less for T7/8, then are superior again for T9+ This also gives you access to Agents of Vect which is pure gold. It gives you 1 more CP but unfortunately comes with a bit of a Tax. I’d say the Archon’s double Aura is worth about 50 pts though, so really a 22 pt tax isn’t much.

A Black Heart Spearhead is something that I'm absolutely considering including. The only thing that's holding me back is that three Archons feels like way too many, especially in a 1500 point list - but that's our HQ tax currently.

Thanks guys - this is helpful and it's a lot for me to mull over.
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 point tournament list   Sat Apr 28 2018, 21:27

@burnage

The points you make are completely valid. I only cut the things I did to include the 5th venom as it just ups your firepower and it also allows you to have another unit that can move freely as and when it's needed. You also don't have to keep all the venoms grouped up around your Archons for the whole game, but in early turns especially it can help a lot. Definitely play it a few times and see what you think. You could also pick up a PGL and an agoniser for 1 of your Archons instead of the huskblade if you chose to.
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