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 Are mercenaries still worth it?

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 19:08

Yes please let's all stop freaking out about the deep strike rules, they are not yet official so you can't be obligated to use them. Until that rule is enshrined as official scourges and mandrakes are still very good. Even if that rule is made official I'll still probably use 3 scourge units in many of my lists, as I often hang back with scourges till turn 2 anyway.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 19:53

Regarding Scourges vs Ravagers, you could take Haywire Scourges and Disintegrator Ravagers. With the former taking some pressure off your anti-vehicle department, if you see what I mean.

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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 21:38

I don't get why people are thinking mercenaries are bad.

with regards to scourges rather than repeat i'll just add.
A 10 man squad is 120pts, that's 30 splinter shots at 18inches, this is a really great way to get more dakka and where you actually want it turn 2.
DS turn 2 into cover, you now have a 3+ save and are hopefully on the top floor of a building too. Forcing your opponent to waste resources hoking them out or shooting at them which is ideal outcome for them, imo a nice cheap distraction unit which deals out the hurt.

The problem i'm facing is trying to figure out if we should still be using MSU for scourges anymore, it seems the ablative wounds are cheap enough and its not as if those shard carbines can't be aimed at other stuff, not forgetting that this keeps your better weapons around longer too.

As for incubi, in the index incubi were stupid cheap, they didn't change in points, at 16pts they are still stupid cheap. Is the issue that everyone is hung up on this as they didn't get a points change?

Incubi still chew through what you send them at and are basically a marine with a power weapon minus one point of toughness, anyone know how much a marine pays for this? its close to double right?
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Dr.Clock
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Fri Apr 20 2018, 15:57

@Dizzie wrote:


The problem I'm facing is trying to figure out if we should still be using MSU for scourges anymore, it seems the ablative wounds are cheap enough and its not as if those shard carbines can't be aimed at other stuff, not forgetting that this keeps your better weapons around longer too.


Yep - I take a 'middle of the road' approach on this, usually taking units of 6 with 3 specials, and this is my standard in other armies for Devastators, for instance: for every guy with a high-priced gun, try and have another guy to hold his beer. 6 guys with three nice guns is about the same as 5 with 4; you lose one shot opportunity at full strength, but basically you can now afford 3x the casualties before your high-quality damage output suffers, you preserve the +1 LD on the leader for longer, and you slightly round out the anti-infantry capacity with an extra 3 splinter shots. When I do invest in the 4 guns, I like to go to an 8-man unit...

My ideal 'scourge detachment' setup is thus 2x6 w/ 3 blasters each, and 1x8 with 4 Lances. I back that up with 2x6-8 Mandrakes. This gives me a pretty 'deep' formation to drop down far on a flank to make a run into the enemy back field on turn 2, with Mandrakes as a Skirmish screen (and even making some charges from DS maybe), blaster Scourges behind them to nuke forward armour and the lances to snipe from high ground (yes, hitting on 4s when they come in... but that's still an average 2 lance hits on basically anything you need to hit that first turn...)

As to the whole 'are they worth it' thing, yesterday I was checking this out:

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t17455-drukhari-codex-damage-output-analysis

For both Scourges and Mandrakes I think the math is pretty clear: they are priced well for their damage potential even given the lack of Obsessions... Mandrakes often hit the top 5 as most efficient damage dealers in either (mid-range) shooting or assault ranges, and Scourges likewise. Essentially I think this reflects that non-Mercs DO pay for Obsessions but Mercs do not - they are built and priced to function without that 'help'... the analysis even provides some numbers around effectiveness with buffs, and you can see that Mercs remain strong even in comparison to those, while having the benefit of needing LESS synergistic thinking and thus being easier to use because you don't have to use them in your 'buff distribution head math' lol - you just get the unit, and it does what it says on the box without having to worry about supporting characters etc.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Fri Apr 20 2018, 16:47

It's not that incubi are overly expensive for what they do. But 5 won't achieve much, best bring 10. And they're going to need a transport. Add 85pts. So that's the best part of 250pts. Two units of 5 mandrakes will cost 160, have their own delivery system, can shoot with MW, have - 1 to hit all round, and aren't slouches in CC. Incubi get a - 3 to AP vs a mandrakes - 1.
Viewed in isolation incubi are fine, but look at them alongside other stuff in our codex and they don't look as good. It's more about other units representing better value than incubi being over costed.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Fri Apr 20 2018, 18:51

@yellabelly wrote:
It's not that incubi are overly expensive for what they do. But 5 won't achieve much, best bring 10. And they're going to need a transport. Add 85pts. So that's the best part of 250pts. Two units of 5 mandrakes will cost 160, have their own delivery system, can shoot with MW, have - 1 to hit all round, and aren't slouches in CC. Incubi get a - 3 to AP vs a mandrakes - 1.
Viewed in isolation incubi are fine, but look at them alongside other stuff in our codex and they don't look as good. It's more about other units representing better value than incubi being over costed.

What would it be that you want to change?

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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Fri Apr 20 2018, 19:35

I haven't given it huge thought in truth. I was using them in the index but can't seem to find room for them now with the codex. I'm suddenly aware it seems like I'm on a crusade against incubi and I don't mean to be.
For what's it's worth seeing them gain base strength 4 would be a big boost. Anything they should be thrown at is T4+ and wounding on 4s at best doesn't translate into enough wounds. Even worse if something can get T5. I mean, incubi would need 5s to wound wracks. Failing a S boost they could have dealt MW on 6s, or just *something* to spice them up a bit.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Fri Apr 20 2018, 20:14

Incubi dont have any support at all, no HQ support, no real stratagem support, they cant shoot. It felt like GW was scared to give them help.

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Fri Apr 20 2018, 20:18

Bring a cronos to reroll wounds, works on all drukhari, not just coven.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Fri Apr 20 2018, 20:19

@Logan Frost wrote:
Bring a cronos to reroll wounds, works on all drukhari, not just coven.

Or i could take another unit and just gain 16 more attacks....  Sad

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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Sat Apr 21 2018, 04:00

@doctor clock
I like the idea you just posted, i think my problem at the moment is i'm in old mind sets with this game. Would certainly help to to make it harder for your opponent to target priority, i'll play test it and see. I was thinking more along the lines of 10 man with 4 blasters or HWB's, however playing more like our craftworld cousins could be an idea, everything is so well costed that it encourages more infantry numbers in the codex.


I like the cronos, i really think it has potential, our play style has changed and we actually have melee choices that can work, also i think the secret is out we suck at wounding in melee, so anything that helps is a plus.
I think someone did the math and it took like alot of attacks to be worth it on aura alone, that however didn't take into account, the shooting and distraction carnifex element and now with the fly keyword getting the cronos into HTH to try to regain a wound is actually something i can see myself doing.

Its hard to measure a cronos as its not great at melee or shooting, its a tanky utility unit, fly has really made it interesting now as imo its utility just got sooooo much better, its got so much potential for crowd control(denying charges, tar pitting etc)
I suppose not everything can be measured in potential to kill and i think everyone is grasping at potential to kill and ignoring what it actually does, it certainly is a bizarre unit for 40k standards.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Sat Apr 21 2018, 04:02

Im not saying Cronos is bad at all, but unless you have many melee units, having 2-3 melee units at the most, it is better to take another unit or large sizes instead of a Cronos.

If you are playing 40 Wyches, Hellions, Talos, Grots, all in 1 army, i would take 1 Cronos for sure.

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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Sat Apr 21 2018, 04:30


I'd say 1 to 2 tops too, depending on melee units.

I was running some numbers earlier on a 10 man incubi squad, they were generating an extra 2.15 wounds in a single round, however looking at it like that in an abstract manner, its hard to justify that.
Then i got to thinking, you multiply that by 3 or 4 times (imo a really conservative number, i expect this to be much higher since it has assault weapons and fly now) throughout a game and it does make its points back, then you factor in the tanky tarpit part and crowd control which has no value in points but its very valuable to have, it just makes so much sense.

Now i'm not advocating Cronos use, I have yet to try them, they seem tricky to play, however the potential in incubi heavy lists is there, any melee list for that matter.

Have you tried them yet? any success?

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Sat Apr 21 2018, 08:09

420 points {70pts / (1/6bonus) } of melee units and the croons becomes worthwhile.
Which is a lot but if you are going with a large CC force then this is probably pretty easy to hit tbh.
The caveat, which we haven't discussed is all those points need to be within a 12" bubble for this to take effect, this might prove harder, unless you have really corralled the enemy or you are doing a seriously focused attack.

The reason I'm not taking into account its other damage is it is, to be frank, terrible. If it did mortals instead of the extra damage then it still wouldn't be good, but it would be worth factoring in.

All this said, it may be best placed in a new thread, purely discussing the uses of a cronos

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Sat Apr 21 2018, 09:15

@amishprn86 wrote:
Im not saying Cronos is bad at all

I am. Wink

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Sat Apr 21 2018, 13:11

Cronos works best if you're going all in on a combat army, so Wych Cult + Coven. Supporting 2 10 man Wych squads with a single Cronos isn't hard, and since the Shardnet and Impaler will keep enemy infantry locked down now you'll have much more time to get the benefit out of the re roll 1's aura. Incubi could become useful here as well, not withstanding my propensity to roll 2's for them, since they'll do more damage in combat than the Wychs.
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