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Burnage
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PostSubject: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 14:08

The more I try to list build with the new Codex, the more trouble I'm having slotting mercenaries in. With the new beta rules that restrict deep striking - which is a bit of an issue for how I typically use Mandrakes and Scourges! - I'm considering whether I want to be running them at all.

When I'm building a detachment at the moment I'm trying to maximise the benefit that I get out of a certain Obsession; mercenaries not gaining that benefit means that you can add them to any list, but I'm having trouble justifying to myself why I would when I could instead add a unit that would have free rerolls or +1 S or a 4++ or whatever.

Scourges still seem okay, but their use as a heavy weapons platform feels a bit muted when every 5 man Kabalite squad can be running around with the damage equivalent of an Index Dark Lance.

Is anyone else feeling this way? How have you been considering putting our mercs into lists?
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Stark Raving Sane
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 15:01

Mandrakes are still totally worth it. They're better used in round 2+ anyway when they can reroll charges.

Scourges, I don't know. Unlike Mandrakes their primary use IMO was as an alpha strike. I suspect they're better off now with shredders than with darklight, but I haven't put that to the test.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 15:15

They can have haywire blaster, which can't be fielded if you have a kabal or cult only army. They are good against T9 and higher and invulnerable saves. Having at least 1 unit is generally worth it.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 15:39

You can have a Haywire Scourge squad for 100pts, which is a cheap effective AT tool.

Blasters scourges got hurt by the new DS FAQ.

Mandrakes are still good, but the new FAQ hurts them.

Incubi are nothing special, imo.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 15:40

Been having a think about this...

The major problem I have with the beta rule is that if you do choose to deploy your reserves on turn 1 in your own deployment zone then you can't move them. That sucks. I get not being allowed to move again while landing 9" from the enemy...but if deployed in your own deployment zone you should be allowed to move.

Being able to move would give Haywire Scourge a 38" range on turn 1 which is decent and by no means game breaking while ensuring they can't be wiped out in your opponents 1st turn.

You could just deploy them in cover from the start of the game...but you shouldn't need to do that.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 15:46

Scourges still have a minimum threat range of 32", and can ds turn 2 with hwb and kill what lances and blasters crippled in turn one.
We had whole editions of t2 deepstrike, I don't think the sky is falling for us, we can just move where we would ds in most cases anyway.
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Britishgrotesque
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 18:10

Is this a case for dark lance scourges now? So we can drop them into cover on our first turn, hitting on 4s is annoying but they otherwise wouldn't get to shoot, then afterwards they are the same in terms of strength and shooting.

With the range over blasters while only being minimally more expensive I can see an opening for them, safe and reliable first turn at snipers
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 18:56

Splinter Cannons are the go for Scourges imo. Haywire if you want anti-tank.

Shredders are stronger AI and much stronger against Vehicles, but with their 12” range, unless you’re able to sceeen for Deepstriking unit’s (maybe with Red Grief Reavers?) then you’re almost always going to get shot up and charged in retaliation. Scourges have a 4+/6++/6+++, but they’re still squishy. Meaning you get 1 shot with those Shredders.

However, sitting at 18” makes them much more survivable, and 27 Splinter shots for a hundred points is not to be scoffed.


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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 19:07

Scourges are still great and Mandrakes have their place too. They also allow me to get a Coven Vanguard or a Wych Outrider detachment with relative ease as I can simply fill parts of the requirements with mercinaries.

Too bad Incubi were left behind. They would have been amazing if they benefitted from obsessions or dealth D2 damage.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 19:11

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Scourges are still great and Mandrakes have their place too. They also allow me to get a Coven Vanguard or a Wych Outrider detachment with relative ease as I can simply fill parts of the requirements with mercinaries.

Too bad Incubi were left behind. They would have been amazing if they benefitted from obsessions or dealth D2 damage.

Incubi really feel like they should be Kabal units. Incubi were the classic Archon bodyguard, after all, and Drazhar even gets a Kabal warlord trait!
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 19:18

those snake people are our bodyguards now

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 19:29

@Burnage wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Scourges are still great and Mandrakes have their place too. They also allow me to get a Coven Vanguard or a Wych Outrider detachment with relative ease as I can simply fill parts of the requirements with mercinaries.

Too bad Incubi were left behind. They would have been amazing if they benefitted from obsessions or dealth D2 damage.

Incubi really feel like they should be Kabal units. Incubi were the classic Archon bodyguard, after all, and Drazhar even gets a Kabal warlord trait!

I suppose that would make most sense. Especially since Cults and Covens have little use for Incubi to begin with. Most of all, they'd make a very solid pick with Black Heart.

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Last edited by The Strange Dark One on Wed Apr 18 2018, 20:52; edited 1 time in total
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 19:33

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Too bad Incubi were left behind. They would have been amazing if they benefitted from obsessions or dealth D2 damage.

It's almost ironic, given that Incubi are the only one of the three mercenary units that actually get HQ support.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 00:26

I always brought Mandrakes in turn 2 for reroll to charge, so that hasn't changed anything for me. They're a backfield harrasment unit that wants to shoot one thing and charge another and leaving it until after your opponent has had a chance to spread out from their deployment zone or you've cleared some space is best.

With Scourge I tend to bring them in turn 2 or 3 as well, I use them as extra support for Ravagers rather than the defacto anti tank unit. I haven't tried them with Shredders for anti infantry but I suspect that they'll be better on Trueborn anyway, +6" range for Obsidian Rose or ignores cover with faster transports for Flayed Skull is very attractive on them.
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PFI
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 00:47

Well you don't have to use tactical reserves. Its a beta rule and isn't actually used in matched play games unless you both want to. Heck even the 3 unit limit isn't standard to matched play but as a tournament guideline.

I did dark lances on my scourges. Could still deepstrike them into your deployment zone and get use of them or hide them and move up. Still the same damage output as a ravager and helps when you can only use 3 ravagers, again assuming you are using the tournament rules.

I still think mandrakes are worth it. I still think dark eldar deepstriking ravagers in your deployment zone is still a thing just to protect them.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 09:51

To be honest, I don't think I'm even seeing the problem.

Is bringing on Scourges or Mandrakes on turn 2 really that bad?

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 09:56

No it isn't terrible...much more reliable than rolling for reserves!
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 11:03

Well i was building, painting, etc.. a list for all mercenaries as Black Heart... i dont want to now at all with the 2 changes (DSing turn 1 and limited 3) both those broke how to play my list... can it be done with the new rules in mind? sure, but not how i wanted to play them and not as good. It relayed on turn 1 DSing and 4 units each.


I feel Mandrakes and HWB Scourges are still viable tho and didnt effect them to much, espeically since HWB are 24", sadly no more Fire and Fade after DS tho.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 11:41

You could argue that with Scourge you're better off starting on the board and not in reserve at all.

Haywire Blaster gives them a 38" threat range. If this isn't enough on turn one then move them into some cover and move into position on turn 2...the difference here from deepstriking is that you can still use fire and fade to hop them back into cover.
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 11:42

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
You could argue that with Scourge you're better off starting on the board and not in reserve at all.

Haywire Blaster gives them a 38" threat range.  If this isn't enough on turn one then move them into some cover and move into position on turn 2...the difference here from deepstriking is that you can still use fire and fade to hop them back into cover.

And if you have LoS terrian b.c we wont be DS against turn, they are MUCH safer.

I would for sure start 1-2 on the table.

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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 12:51

Agree with others that Incubi have been left in the dust. They don't really offer up anything which can't be gained more efficiently from elsewhere in the codex. I'd rather take a couple of disintegrator razorwings for hunting down elite infantry. When you look at the cost of incubi, and then provide a transport to make sure they get where they need to be still alive, it get's expensive. They also suffer badly if they get a round of bad rolls or whatever, they typically get minced in reply (against the targets they are designed for). A lot of armoured infantry seem to pack some invul saves too.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 13:04

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
To be honest, I don't think I'm even seeing the problem.

Is bringing on Scourges or Mandrakes on turn 2 really that bad?

It's not really the deep striking change that worries me, it's more that I feel the mercenaries aren't optimal compared to units in similar niches which can benefit from Obsessions.

There were healthy debates about whether Scourges or Ravagers were better in the Index, for instance. Well, they both got cheaper in the Codex, and Ravagers gained the possibility of getting Obsession-related buffs. Scourges got a larger list of viable weaponry. Is that worth taking them over a Ravager or even a flier? The more I think about it, the more I'm skeptical.
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 13:36

@yellabelly wrote:
Agree with others that Incubi have been left in the dust. They don't really offer up anything which can't be gained more efficiently from elsewhere in the codex. I'd rather take a couple of disintegrator razorwings for hunting down elite infantry. When you look at the cost of incubi, and then provide a transport to make sure they get where they need to be still alive, it get's expensive. They also suffer badly if they get a round of bad rolls or whatever, they typically get minced in reply (against the targets they are designed for). A lot of armoured infantry seem to pack some invul saves too.
Incubi aren't expensive at all. Their biggest problem is the complete and total lack of synergy with anything else, even Drazhar. That and that they are in direct competition with Mandrakes, who fill a duel role and are good at both making them the obvious choice.
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 13:41

@Burnage wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
To be honest, I don't think I'm even seeing the problem.

Is bringing on Scourges or Mandrakes on turn 2 really that bad?

It's not really the deep striking change that worries me, it's more that I feel the mercenaries aren't optimal compared to units in similar niches which can benefit from Obsessions.

There were healthy debates about whether Scourges or Ravagers were better in the Index, for instance. Well, they both got cheaper in the Codex, and Ravagers gained the possibility of getting Obsession-related buffs. Scourges got a larger list of viable weaponry. Is that worth taking them over a Ravager or even a flier? The more I think about it, the more I'm skeptical.
And I have always maintained that was a needless argument. You never took Scourges to replace Ravagers/Razorwings, you took Scourges to supplement them.

The thing to remember with Razorwings and Voidravens is that they are a lot less maneouverable than Hemlocks and Crimson Hunters, it's much easier for hordes to spread out and deny them space to move meaning they're automatically destroyed. Never a problem for Scourges and Ravagers.
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PostSubject: Re: Are mercenaries still worth it?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 16:43

@Imateria wrote:

And I have always maintained that was a needless argument. You never took Scourges to replace Ravagers/Razorwings, you took Scourges to supplement them.

+1, especially now with the 'rule of 3'

The beta strike is real. If Scourges got Obsessions, they'd be insane. But for 16 ppm, a 4+/6++, 3 shots at 18" and a 14" move with all the heavy/special options you could want, they are in basically every list I write, and outnumber my Kabalites at 2k (admittedly by one model, but hey).

With both Scourges and Mandrakes, they're also great for filling slots in Outrider or Vanguard detachments when you don't want triple Reavers or Grotesques, but also want to keep an Obsession. Again at 2k, I take a Cult Outrider detachment to get a Succubus and Wych crew with triple Scourges to garner an extra CP over a Patrol setup. Similarly my cheap and cheerful Haemo/Grot Raider is backed by 2x5 Mandrakes to turn them into a Vanguard Detachment.

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