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 TDC's letter to GW - How did we do?

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: TDC's letter to GW - How did we do?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 16:33

@AzraeI wrote:
@TheBaconPope wrote:
...Given the thermonuclear trainwrecks that were our last two installations...

I thought Dark Eldar didnt have a 6th ed codex, and the 5th ed seemed pretty good

7th edition and the 8th edition Index.
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: TDC's letter to GW - How did we do?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 17:31

7th edition was an unplayable mess with a DE Codex that added to the frustration.
The Index was good against other Indexes.
I am enjoying 8th edition nearly as much as any other game system I've played, and the codex is perfect. I like all the options and I'm having a blast not only playing, but making lists. The real eye opener is that I've *added* a new hobby to my hobby: I'm making lists just for the sake of making lists. Several a day. And the further enlightening revelation for me: I NEVER have enough room to get everything I want in there.

Having a blast.

Regarding the topic of this thread: when I got the Codex I was doing some mental connections, trying to tie all of our wishlisting to what we got. This book delivered far more than I hoped and certainly more than I expected.

Several vociferous members have quit (at least a soft retirement) but that happens every single time any game system revises. I've done it myself a number of times.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: TDC's letter to GW - How did we do?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 17:40

Honestly, I don't mind that our HQ's can't ride in transports ... Imagine the complaints exploding on the GW Facebook page if we, the Drukhari, got an exception to the rules that our Aura effect models inside vehicles and while our HQ is embarked ... For us to have that, everyone would get it and I could see some incredibly broken shenanigans and abuses of such a ruling, I get why people want it, practically and thematically it makes sense that a commander should be able to issue orders or influence their troops no matter if they are in a transport or not, but game mechanics wise I don't think it's a good idea. Imagine a land raider with a some named or unnamed HQ in it (that isn't a primarch) it's hard enough to kill one of those but it's footprint would also allow for a wider aura "bubble" than intended as it would be measured from the hull of the land raider as opposed to wherever the model is located inside the vehicle. And let's be honest, the obsessions more than make up for not being able to be effected by the archins aura. (I have a hard time choosing which to use O.O it feels amazing to not just go "I'm gonna take this every time" ... OPTIONS!!!) The only thing I wish they would have added is a heavy support beast/beast master for the Cults as cults don't have a heavy support option ...
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: TDC's letter to GW - How did we do?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 18:04

@Archon_91 wrote:
Honestly, I don't mind that our HQ's can't ride in transports ... Imagine the complaints exploding on the GW Facebook page if we, the Drukhari, got an exception to the rules that our Aura effect models inside vehicles and while our HQ is embarked

Yes, wouldn't it be awful if we had a mechanic that made a shred of sense.  Rolling Eyes


EDIT: Regarding the footprint thing, it wouldn't be an issue if the aura only worked inside the vehicle (i.e. the passengers would all benefit but not any models outside).

Regarding other factions, it wouldn't matter if their auras worked inside their transports or not because they can't shoot out of them.

Of course, the other possibility would have been to put just the tiniest bit of effort and thought into the Archon, and maybe give him something other than the most basic aura possible. Something like 'At the beginning of each shooting phase, you may choose a unit within 18" of the Archon (or within 18" of a transport he's currently embarked on). Until the start of your next turn, friendly Drukhari units reroll to hit rolls of 1 against the chosen unit.'

Boom. Now you've got something that works in or out of a transport, which doesn't need your forces to cluster up, which rewards you for not putting your Archon at the back of the table, and which makes additional Archons at least somewhat useful (as they can designate additional targets to gain rerolls against). It would also cement him as the leader of the army, rather than just the Kabal section.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: TDC's letter to GW - How did we do?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 20:59

I did say later in in my post that it would make sense for the aura to work inside vehicles, but I also argued for why, if we get it, every one should, then gave an example of possible abuses, and overall it would just be a rules headache for gw and the player base if, in terms of the game, it was allowed. As for the ability of an archon to point at something within 18" and everyone labelled Drukhari gets rerolls of 1 to hit against that unit ... Please name one other character that can just do that, without needing a warlord trait or a psychic power (and the psychic power isn't gaurunteed to always work), I have limited knowledge of other codex's but I can't think of anything like that. Plus fluffwise while the archon may coordinate the raid, cult units would still follow the orders of their succubus over that of the archon, and same with coven and a haemunculus. They go on the raids but they command their own forces.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: TDC's letter to GW - How did we do?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 21:08

@Archon_91 wrote:
I did say later in in my post that it would make sense for the aura to work inside vehicles, but I also argued for why, if we get it, every one should, then gave an example of possible abuses, and overall it would just be a rules headache for gw and the player base if, in terms of the game, it was allowed.

Except that that wasn't what I suggested. So, no, you haven't addressed it at all.

What I suggested was that the aura would only affect units actually inside the transport.

@Archon_91 wrote:
As for the ability of an archon to point at something within 18" and everyone labelled Drukhari gets rerolls of 1 to hit against that unit ... Please name one other character that can just do that, without needing a warlord trait or a psychic power (and the psychic power isn't gaurunteed to always work), I have limited knowledge of other codex's but I can't think of anything like that.

Are you discounting all the other characters with auras that grant rerolls of 1 to everything around them?

The whole reason I'm suggesting this is because that sort of aura really doesn't work for our army (we rely too heavily on shooting from inside transports, and our HQs have no mobility options outside of transports).

@Archon_91 wrote:
Plus fluffwise while the archon may coordinate the raid, cult units would still follow the orders of their succubus over that of the archon, and same with coven and a haemunculus. They go on the raids but they command their own forces.

Alright, what if it gave rerolls to Kabal and mercenary units (i.e. Incubi, Mandrakes and Scourges)? That way those units aren't completely devoid of HQ support.

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: TDC's letter to GW - How did we do?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 21:09

Pointing at something and rerolling 1''s to hit is, to me, no different than granting that same ability to units within 6"

The only difference would be the army would position around the targeted units instead of castling around the powerwalking Archon. It's fun and befits a more aggressive plsystyle.

Also, what would the impact be if GW put in their next FAQ. "Units embarked on the same transport as a unit with an Aura ability, as well as the transport itself, are considered to be within range when applying it's effects." Well, you'd probably see Autarches and Captains in transports more, and a benefit for including an HQ into an open topped. Stormbolters and Shuriken Cannons rerolling 1's isn't exactly meta shifting.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: TDC's letter to GW - How did we do?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 23:07

If it specified actual "transports" and not "models with transport capacity" then it might not impact the game that much, as you say rerolling storm bolters and shuriken cannons probably won't be meta shifting, but then I would assume we would also see quite a few more doomsythes (?) The Necron flyer that can transport units, and I'm pretty sure the Imperium has flyers that can also transport units. I would argue that even without the "point and destroy" ability we have to play aggressively with our archon as they are best served in cc and with a move+advance of an average 11.5 I'd say the archon is decently mobile. And will more than likely be within CC range turn 2 when he gets the reroll to charge.
@Souless Samuri, first I apologise for my misunderstanding on what you meant with araus in transports you are right I didn't really address that, so I ask ... Why do you think that would be a good idea, aside from fluff reasons? Outside of the court of the Archon I really don't see a unit that really benefits in any way from riding with an archon as it takes a model away from the unit thus dropping it's load out by 1 special and 1 heavy weapon or by two cult weapons. Plus it also puts your Archon at risk of insta death should his transport die and you roll a 1, or by being surrounded in cc and being destroyed then and not having a place to set him.
Next, no I wasn't discounting all the characters with a reroll aura, it's fairly common and I would severely hurt my argument if I did disregard it, but that is limited to the 6" bubble around the model itself and thus is very limited in range of effectiveness on the board, no I asked for any character that could choose a unit within 18" of itself barring a warlord trait ( I don't know if one like this exists or not) or a psychic power ( doom or equivalent) and give any unit, regardless of proximity to the character or Target in question, the ability to reroll hits of 1. I agree with you that aura's (at least the archons) are pointless for our army (sort of ... It does still work on the transport just not the passengers, which, if I wanted to really rules lawyer I could argue that it actually does, but that goes well into the realms of iffy interpretation ... and I want to actually be able to play fun games with fun people ... And not be kicked out of my player group for arguing this point), and the place this "point and destroy" rule came from also couldn't effect the entire army, just a formation that was (if I remember correctly) 1 unit of kabalite warriors, 1 raider, and 1 unit of reaver jetbikes ... and even then the Archon couldn't use it if he was inside a transport.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: TDC's letter to GW - How did we do?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 23:20

@Archon_91 wrote:
If it specified actual "transports" and not "models with transport capacity" then it might not impact the game that much, as you say rerolling storm bolters and shuriken cannons probably won't be meta shifting, but then I would assume we would also see quite a few more doomsythes (?) The Necron flyer that can transport units, and I'm pretty sure the Imperium has flyers that can also transport units. I would argue that even without the "point and destroy" ability we have to play aggressively with our archon as they are best served in cc and with a move+advance of an average 11.5 I'd say the archon is decently mobile. And will more than likely be within CC range turn 2 when he gets the reroll to charge.
@Souless Samuri, first I apologise for my misunderstanding on what you meant with araus in transports you are right I didn't really address that, so I ask ... Why do you think that would be a good idea, aside from fluff reasons? Outside of the court of the Archon I really don't see a unit that really benefits in any way from riding with an archon as it takes a model away from the unit thus dropping it's load out by 1 special and 1 heavy weapon or by two cult weapons. Plus it also puts your Archon at risk of insta death should his transport die and you roll a 1, or by being surrounded in cc and being destroyed then and not having a place to set him.
Next, no I wasn't discounting all the characters with a reroll aura, it's fairly common and I would severely hurt my argument if I did disregard it, but that is limited to the 6" bubble around the model itself and thus is very limited in range of effectiveness on the board, no I asked for any character that could choose a unit within 18" of itself barring a warlord trait ( I don't know if one like this exists or not) or a psychic power ( doom or equivalent) and give any unit, regardless of proximity to the character or Target in question, the ability to reroll hits of 1. I agree with you that aura's (at least the archons) are pointless for our army (sort of ... It does still work on the transport just not the passengers, which, if I wanted to really rules lawyer I could argue that it actually does, but that goes well into the realms of iffy interpretation ... and I want to actually be able to play fun games with fun people ... And not be kicked out of my player group for arguing this point), and the place this "point and destroy" rule came from also couldn't effect the entire army, just a formation that was (if I remember correctly) 1 unit of kabalite warriors, 1 raider, and 1 unit of reaver jetbikes ... and even then the Archon couldn't use it if he was inside a transport.

It doesn't work for the transport. And for the necron doomscythe, I would add a rule in the model description, since the models aren't in the transport, but scanned and stored. Thus, can't give their aura.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: TDC's letter to GW - How did we do?   Thu Apr 19 2018, 23:59

@Archon_91 wrote:
If it specified actual "transports" and not "models with transport capacity" then it might not impact the game that much, as you say rerolling storm bolters and shuriken cannons probably won't be meta shifting, but then I would assume we would also see quite a few more doomsythes (?) The Necron flyer that can transport units

Necrons don't have a flier that can transport units. Certainly not in the conventional sense. The Nightscythe can let units start in reserve and deep strike near it once per turn, but it doesn't use any of the normal transport rules. In all honestly it could probably use a buff, given how abysmal it is.

@Archon_91 wrote:
and I'm pretty sure the Imperium has flyers that can also transport units.

Possibly, but whether it's worth them buying a character to do nothing more than pilot the thing is another matter.

@Archon_91 wrote:
I would argue that even without the "point and destroy" ability we have to play aggressively with our archon as they are best served in cc

Except that most armies have a Black Heart Archon sitting at the back of the table so that he can bore Ravager pilots to death with Vect's words. Possibly if they hit their targets then he agrees to shut his cake-hole.

@Archon_91 wrote:
and with a move+advance of an average 11.5 I'd say the archon is decently mobile.

Wow. So if the melee Archon moves and advances (thus giving up the ability to charge), then he's almost as mobile as a SM HQ with a jump pack. Except that the latter moves 12" without needing to advance and so can charge afterwards.

Tell you what, how about SMs get +2" of movement base, and lose out on their bikes and jump packs, whilst our HQs go down to 6" base but gain jetbikes, skyboards and wings? SMs will be overjoyed, right? Now their HQs are as fast as ours. Wink

@Archon_91 wrote:

@Souless Samuri, first I apologise for my misunderstanding on what you meant with araus in transports you are right I didn't really address that, so I ask ... Why do you think that would be a good idea, aside from fluff reasons? Outside of the court of the Archon I really don't see a unit that really benefits in any way from riding with an archon as it takes a model away from the unit thus dropping it's load out by 1 special and 1 heavy weapon or by two cult weapons.

Well, this is exactly why I suggested the 'pick a unit within 18" and reroll 1s against it' ability in place of the Archon's aura. Razz Razz

However, if he must have an aura, I'd suggest that, if he's embarked on a transport, the aura applies to the transport and any models embarked on it (but not to models outside the transport). It's not ideal but would at least make it slightly less crap. I'd have the same apply to the Court's ability (so they don't need to disembark to get shooting rerolls).

@Archon_91 wrote:
Plus it also puts your Archon at risk of insta death should his transport die and you roll a 1, or by being surrounded in cc and being destroyed then and not having a place to set him.

Well, since you pick which models die, the risk is pretty low unless the Archon is the only model in the transport.

That said, I would still like the option of Wings, Jetbikes etc. for our HQs. That way they've got a choice beyond transports or footslogging.

@Archon_91 wrote:

Next, no I wasn't discounting all the characters with a reroll aura, it's fairly common and I would severely hurt my argument if I did disregard it, but that is limited to the 6" bubble around the model itself and thus is very limited in range of effectiveness on the board, no I asked for any character that could choose a unit within 18" of itself barring a warlord trait ( I don't know if one like this exists or not) or a psychic power ( doom or equivalent) and give any unit, regardless of proximity to the character or Target in question, the ability to reroll hits of 1. I agree with you that aura's (at least the archons) are pointless for our army (sort of ... It does still work on the transport just not the passengers, which, if I wanted to really rules lawyer I could argue that it actually does, but that goes well into the realms of iffy interpretation ... and I want to actually be able to play fun games with fun people ... And not be kicked out of my player group for arguing this point), and the place this "point and destroy" rule came from also couldn't effect the entire army, just a formation that was (if I remember correctly) 1 unit of kabalite warriors, 1 raider, and 1 unit of reaver jetbikes ... and even then the Archon couldn't use it if he was inside a transport.

Sorry, I'm not understanding what you're saying here.

In terms of 'reroll aura' vs 'point and destroy', the latter has the advantage of potentially affecting more friendly units, but only ever affects 1 enemy unit. Whereas, since the aura affects all friendly units, they can shoot at different enemies and still all get the bonus. I think they're pretty even, in all honesty.

In terms of where it came from, it's not based on any formation. It's just a suggestion for a more sensible way to implement a reroll ability on the Archon - since an aura really doesn't suit our army's playstyle.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: TDC's letter to GW - How did we do?   Fri Apr 20 2018, 16:51

I don't usually face opponents that have more than 2 units effected by their HQs aura and usually both units shoot at the same target or two different targets, which i guess means my argument is biased based on my experience, I don't know what you face so for you it might be different. So I was simply saying (as we have to have multiple archon) that an ability that is basically global range (from the chosen enemy unit) for all, or even just mercs and kabalites, seems like a huge leg up over what other armies have, and probably cause lists of maxed allowable archon to be able to use that ability on 3 different units. If that makes sense. Smile
As for the "where it came from" I should have explained ... Back in 7th in the first start collecting box for DE it came with a formation card that gave the archon that exact ability where he would choose an enemy unit and all units in that formation, the raider kabalites and reavers, would get rerolls to hit against the target (there might have been more to it I don't remember)
As for the risk of the archon dying, when the vehicle dies don't you have to roll for each unit inside? Say if you had 2x5 man squads of kabalites you would roll 2 separate sets of 5 dice to see which models die, and because the archon is his own unit no matter what if you roll a 1 for him he dies ... At least that's how it's played in my area, so again my argument is based on my experience.
I see you point on the footslogging archon, I've always done it and never had an issue getting him into combat turn 1 or 2 (turn 1 is usually because my opponent charges him after I put him up there or they move something close enough to me that I can charge easily) but I can understand why being able to put him on a jetbike, skyboard, or give him scourge wings would be nice and having multiple choices is always good. Though I also don't build a list or play with the idea of "I must keep my archon in range of x and y unit to use his aura" same goes for the succubus, only one I worry about in terms of aura is the heamy and because I footslog my coven anyway that isn't much of an issue either. Smile
I agree with you that aura's aren't exactly our armies play style but that's the new thing for this addition and we have to adapt to it. Besides we may see new models for DE in a few months or we may not, and it might include new options for archons, succubi, and haemunculus or it might not who knows. I'd be happy to see new models for any Xenos army really ... I'm getting just a little bit tired of all the new imperium model releases.
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